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  #21  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:19
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Re: What the law means to you?

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I believe that people are hypocrites and use the law and rules in a way that serve them.
Absolutely my opinion too!!!

Then some folks seem to get a kick out of abiding by the rules/laws and can't shove it enough down the throat of everyone else.

I don't particularly like rules and laws because they always make me feel kind of guilty.
Then I also see the good side of it. It does somehow bring order into chaos doesn't it. See, I'm getting all split up again.

So many things have their positive/negative side and thus make life pretty complicated at times.
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  #22  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:21
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Re: What the law means to you?

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That is an honest answer! Thank you! I do know that you are not the kind to bash on anyones who do those things from your high horse!

It is funny when someone gets upset of someone who ''breaks'' the law but will do the same thing on something else!
You try to tell me my answer where "Honest"?
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  #23  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:25
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Re: What the law means to you?

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You try to tell me my answer where "Honest"?
Nooooooo! Lets say it was an answer from her opinion and it was straight. No funny pictures or canadian exemples, just an answer from her personal experience...

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  #24  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:26
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Re: What the law means to you?

I quite like it here, many laws seem to be ignored for the greater good. Despite hearing stories of people being fined for jaywalking, nobody seems to care about all the happy tokers on the lakeside or out the back of bars.

I'm mostly law abiding, but have, and will probably continue to flout many laws, nobody really cares if you're not doing harm, it's mostly a give and take. It takes a particular, and luckily, quite rare sort of person who feels their rights are so widly infriginged by minor transgressions that they would see fit to report someone.
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Old 21.01.2011, 15:31
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Re: What the law means to you?

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Hum, this is what you wrote, isn't it?


So if it is offered, it is ok, but if the guy ask for it, he should be reported.... But the law is clear on this. No bribery at all!!
Yes offered a bribe, not asking one.

The law is clear on it? Then why the official authorities supposed to protect your rights, clearly don't care about such "insignifiant" incidents? I also reported discrimination: an official agency said you can not rent any flat with us because you are french (also provided email evidence)-

Even the agency which is suppose to respect the law refused to act on a bribery incident (report with email, advert, witness comments, name of their tenant, etc...).

So yes the law is clear on theory. In practice, police force and so on, are more interested in putting you parking tickets, etc... Everything profitable


And yes the law should mean everything to you because a judge (ie the last standing person on the food chain) has the ultimate power on your social life-
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  #26  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:40
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Re: What the law means to you?

Simples, for me, it depends on the severity of the crime and if anyone is in immediate danger.

I will not hesitate to report drunk driving, an assault, and other crimes that are higher on my anti-social behaviour list to the police. But a simple act of jaywalking, someone smoking in the pub, dodging train fares, neighbours making noise after 10pm hasnt killed anyone. Yet.

If that makes me a hypocrite, then so be it. I call it flexibility and common sense.

As for breaking the law, I'm a regular jaywalker - never having patience to wait for the lights. There are some silly laws in my opinion but comply with them for generally a peaceful and quiet life - eg paying for billag!!!
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  #27  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:43
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Re: What the law means to you?

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Yes offered a bribe, not asking one.
I honestly do not see a difference in the quality between active and passive corruption - and the law is indeed clear on both - but you are of course invited to show it to me

I personally do not follow laws "because they are laws". I follow my own ethics and base my actions on them. Reality is that by far most laws make perfect sense - so I do follow them. If I do not follow them, I am aware of it and accept the consequences.

If you want to make it sound too posh for the EF:

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  #28  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:51
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Re: What the law means to you?

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Yes offered a bribe, not asking one.

The law is clear on it? Then why the official authorities supposed to protect your rights, clearly don't care about such "insignifiant" incidents? I also reported discrimination: an official agency said you can not rent any flat with us because you are french (also provided email evidence)-

Even the agency which is suppose to respect the law refused to act on a bribery incident (report with email, advert, witness comments, name of their tenant, etc...).

So yes the law is clear on theory. In practice, police force and so on, are more interested in putting you parking tickets, etc... Everything profitable


And yes the law should mean everything to you because a judge (ie the last standing person on the food chain) has the ultimate power on your social life-
This was exactly my question... This week with the story of the smoking ban in restaurants, someone was asking about what to do. Someone said that the police will not care, and why should you.

The law is there but if nobody enforce it properly, someone will break it. And who will care? As long nobody takes proper actions, the situation will remains the way it is.

In the case of smoking, if you don't say something, if the next guy doesn't say something, ect.. Nothing will never be done.

About the appartments it is the same. If someone offer you money and you accept it, you enter in the circle of being acceptable. If you refuse, you respect the law (even if no ones in the autorities will care).

Which brings me to my question: Which side are you when it comes to the respect of the law.

Me? If I was in a rush and need to catch this tram, I would probably do it, yes. The law about the cigarettes ban? depends, as I said in the thread. About an appartment's bonus. No, that will go against my personal rules. It is just pushing the problem further and it isn't fair.

So my own opinion on my question is: Depends on the situation.
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  #29  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:54
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Re: What the law means to you?

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I honestly do not see a difference in the quality between active and passive corruption - and the law is indeed clear on both - but you are of course invited to show it to me
Well not offering a bribe when you are in flat hunting distress is social suicide*.

*in the current flat hunting market, lausanne area.

Ie: first you actually give to someone in a dominant position, which is very different behavior than abusing if you are in the dominant position.
A bit like donation vs exploitation.

The law is clear and yet there's nothing to protect the "weak" in that context. The "weak" who can lose job, terrible amount of time, money, efforts. The "weak" who realise that over 80% of the 70flats visited had been obtain by "acquaintance" as opposed to a fair treatment of their application file.

But yes, in depend on the context, if you flash money to get a flat after 2 unsuccessful visit, you are clearly acting as quick corrupter. But if you do it as an alternative when a significant attempts to do the "legal way" has been failure due to blatant abuse of laws, then... it's different!

Well that's my opinion you'r entitled to yours.
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  #30  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:58
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Re: What the law means to you?

My outlook on life is to not break the law. If I break the law, for whatever reason, I have to accept the consequences. I may not like specific laws, but that's the price of living in a civilised society.

I can't fathom people who take pride in "getting away with it". And then when you tell them that you think what they're doing is wrong, you get accused of being on a moral high-horse, and being self-righteous. As though being law-abiding is some kind of moral defect in itself! There are few, if any, unjust laws in Switzerland, so I don't see the problem.

I wouldn't offer some cash-in-hand to get an apartment - I don't want to enrich the kind of people who ask for bribes.
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  #31  
Old 21.01.2011, 16:00
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Re: What the law means to you?

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I honestly do not see a difference in the quality between active and passive corruption - and the law is indeed clear on both - but you are of course invited to show it to me

I personally do not follow laws "because they are laws". I follow my own ethics and base my actions on them. Reality is that by far most laws make perfect sense - so I do follow them. If I do not follow them, I am aware of it and accept the consequences.

If you want to make it sound too posh for the EF:
I think the exact same. When it comes to ethics, I respect the law. I would find it unethical to accept money from someone to get my appartment when 10 others are also on the list. I would find it unfair for those who can't pay more for it. Those are the ones who are the victims of a corrupted system. Everyone should have the same chance based on the same criterias.

And when someone does accept this system, it brings many to do the same. As long as no one will stop this, it will get worst.

If you cross the street on a red light when it is no car coming, Eh!

If you have 20 bars and one is smoke? Eh!

If you have someone doing noise once in a while until 2 am on a saturday? Eh! But if it is every saturday? I'll complain... I need to sleep too.

So yes, the law is for me according of common sense and ethic. Sometimes it doesn't make sense but I have to follow it otherwise, I'll be in trouble.
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  #32  
Old 21.01.2011, 16:02
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Re: What the law means to you?

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In the case of smoking, if you don't say something, if the next guy doesn't say something, ect.. Nothing will never be done.
Not true. Every day do I see countless cars (including me) "casually speeding" at maybe 5-10km over the 120 limit. I get typically two speeding fines of 40 CHFs each a year, so the police does check from time to time. Does it have an effect? Statistically I know that it would be relatively safe to speed far more - but I also know how steep the price is IF they happen to be controlling. So I don't.

No country in this world can control each and every move of each and every citizen. Eastern Germany tried actually - with limited success.

The key must be to have logical laws, no corruption in the police and justice system and a fair chance to get caught - especially if you do something continuously wrong or severely wrong.
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  #33  
Old 21.01.2011, 16:04
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Re: What the law means to you?

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Finally, my client never got a flat that way so he never comitted illegal practice. He just tried alternative solutions.




I should pay myself for that good defending.




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Hum, this is what you wrote, isn't it?



So if it is offered, it is ok, but if the guy ask for it, he should be reported.... But the law is clear on this. No bribery at all!!
now we should getting payed for believing you or Nil
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  #34  
Old 21.01.2011, 16:09
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Re: What the law means to you?

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now we should getting payed for believing you or Nil
Sweetheart! It is time to show your faith!
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  #35  
Old 21.01.2011, 16:15
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Re: What the law means to you?

Life is usually very simple... we just tend to over-complicate it.
Live and let live! Of course, I am talking about minor "side steps" here...
Show me someone claiming to have never broken a law, and I will show you a liar...

"The law is not an end in itself, nor does it provide ends. It is preeminently a means to serve what we think is right." - William J. Brennan
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  #36  
Old 21.01.2011, 16:15
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Re: What the law means to you?

I have to laugh at the groaning going on here. Some people are frankly too wrapped up in what they think is right and wrong and projecting that on others.

Where a crime has no social impact or victim, I say let it be.

No kittens were killed last time I was speeding.

Yes, it sucks when you have to "lubricate" the accommodation process - but where occupancy is near 100%, how do you stand out? Sucks a little for the "losers" but that's life.

How do you think big business goes on? Without lubrication?

Breaking the law - it's simple; if you're prepared to deal with the consequences, do it. That's pretty much what goes on anyway - I am sure the serial killers of past, present and future were prepared to go to prison or die for what they did.....after all, if nobody knows they did it, how can their ego be massaged?
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  #37  
Old 21.01.2011, 16:20
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Re: What the law means to you?

the law is totally irrelevant to me from a moral point of view. i decide for myself what i think is right and wrong and live by my own rules. if the law happens to coincide, then great, if not, then i need to weigh up the risks of breaking the law.
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  #38  
Old 21.01.2011, 16:20
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Re: What the law means to you?

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This week we saw many interesting topics on EF and many where rules, laws related. The thread who made us talk the most was about to involve the police or not when a coffee/bar/restaurant breaks the no-smoking law.

We have also this other topic about paying a ''bonus'' to someone to get an appartment even when knowing that this is an illegal practice and should be prohibited.

So here is my question, what is your relation with the law in general?

Do you think it should be respected at all time?

Do you think that you can break the rules sometimes (especially if it is on your favor)?

Do you think that laws are for everybody else except you?

I am pretty curious because I remember when someone was saying that he was using the public transport without paying, people here were burning him alive. But if someone wants to report something like a break of the smoke ban law, he is also the bad guy. And if someone is giving or receiving money to assure him an appartment it seems ok...

I believe that people are hypocrites and use the law and rules in a way that serve them.

Laws for me are always subject to interpretation, but I know when I bend it slightly or a lot, that I'm willing to accept the consequence for my actions without whining about it
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  #39  
Old 21.01.2011, 16:24
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Re: What the law means to you?

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This is his revenge because I groaned at him this morning when he said that he had no problem to accept money from someone in assurance to get the appartment.
Yeah afterall groaning/bad-rep feels soo good and accomplished and giving some vengeance to some random cyber user.
Damn, why we are so bored in life?

(oops, shall I expect some groans too )
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  #40  
Old 21.01.2011, 16:40
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Re: What the law means to you?

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Where a crime has no social impact or victim, I say let it be.

Yes, it sucks when you have to "lubricate" the accommodation process - but where occupancy is near 100%, how do you stand out? Sucks a little for the "losers" but that's life.

How do you think big business goes on? Without lubrication?
But you see, this specific exemple has a huge social impact on the population in general (meaning the majority who can't afford to ''oil'' the system) And after, they are being force as well to oil the system to be able to find an appartment... So they are forced to go throw this process because of richer ones that have no moral problem to do so...

So in one sentence you said that if it does have a social impact, we shouldn't do it and in the next sentence it is too bad for the losers!

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No kittens were killed last time I was speeding.
Until one day....

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How do you think big business goes on? Without lubrication?
Yep, syndicalism and Mafia are now in the hot water in New York and Montreal for too much lubrification into the system...
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