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  #41  
Old 21.01.2011, 18:02
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Re: What the law means to you?

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This week we saw many interesting topics on EF and many where rules, laws related. The thread who made us talk the most was about to involve the police or not when a coffee/bar/restaurant breaks the no-smoking law.

We have also this other topic about paying a ''bonus'' to someone to get an appartment even when knowing that this is an illegal practice and should be prohibited.

So here is my question, what is your relation with the law in general?

Do you think it should be respected at all time?

Do you think that you can break the rules sometimes (especially if it is on your favor)?

Do you think that laws are for everybody else except you?

I am pretty curious because I remember when someone was saying that he was using the public transport without paying, people here were burning him alive. But if someone wants to report something like a break of the smoke ban law, he is also the bad guy. And if someone is giving or receiving money to assure him an appartment it seems ok...

I believe that people are hypocrites and use the law and rules in a way that serve them.



Laws determine the price of my freedom.

I choose to do what I will, not because the law tells me what and what not I can do.

If it breaks the law, then the penalty/sentence/fine is the price of freedom.

No victim. No crime.

Hurt no one.

What other laws do you need ?
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  #42  
Old 21.01.2011, 18:04
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Re: What the law means to you?

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But you see, this specific exemple has a huge social impact on the population in general (meaning the majority who can't afford to ''oil'' the system) And after, they are being force as well to oil the system to be able to find an appartment... So they are forced to go throw this process because of richer ones that have no moral problem to do so...
You still don't get that it would have been more costly not to try offering a bribe!
In my situation it was nearly 4 months of extremely active flat hunting. My applications had a "strong profile" as per my employer, based on salary, personal situation, diplomas, company name and reputation, etc...

I'm not trying to "justify" my actions because I don't rely on someone else opinion. (I "groaned"for fun because I knew you would reply ).

So it's not I could "afford to oil the system", is that I did not have a choice, and not obtaining a flat would have cost me more: loss of the job, huge hotel costs, homelessness, cost of food staying in hotel, huge time out of work, etc...).

So if the "majority" you are talking about are homeless migrant with a Permis B, then they are screwed, they don't have a choice but to try anything ( after some reasonnable efforts in playing by the rules).

And the "system" you describe (i'm talking specifically about local market in Vaud, Lausanne) is already roting with corruption, acquaintances, and abuse from over powerful agencies. Oh and terribly stupid administration ladies at those agencies.

I can provide details published in the media:
Source:
http://www.24heures.ch/vaud-regions/actu/trouver-logement-devient-mission-impossible-2010-01-10
(the availability rate of flats in Lausanne was 0.1%!!!)


So I see and understand what you mean, but you really need to adapt to the real life! And you need to find the real "root cause" of the problem:

Is that some people offering bribes, or is that due to little flat availability, market controller by too powerful groups, cultural preferences, excessive or unplanned migration, etc...?
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  #43  
Old 21.01.2011, 18:12
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Re: What the law means to you?

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..
Hurt no one...
Especially me.
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  #44  
Old 21.01.2011, 19:27
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Re: What the law means to you?

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So yes, the law is for me according of common sense and ethic. Sometimes it doesn't make sense but I have to follow it otherwise, I'll be in trouble.
No you don't have to follow the law it is your choice, hence most laws passed that are unpopular will naturally be ignored.

Too many laws these days controlling too many things, with too many corporations deciding right or wrong.

My two pennies worth
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  #45  
Old 21.01.2011, 21:46
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Re: What the law means to you?

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You still don't get that it would have been more costly not to try offering a bribe!
In my situation it was nearly 4 months of extremely active flat hunting. My applications had a "strong profile" as per my employer, based on salary, personal situation, diplomas, company name and reputation, etc...

I'm not trying to "justify" my actions because I don't rely on someone else opinion. (I "groaned"for fun because I knew you would reply ).

So it's not I could "afford to oil the system", is that I did not have a choice, and not obtaining a flat would have cost me more: loss of the job, huge hotel costs, homelessness, cost of food staying in hotel, huge time out of work, etc...).

So if the "majority" you are talking about are homeless migrant with a Permis B, then they are screwed, they don't have a choice but to try anything ( after some reasonnable efforts in playing by the rules).

And the "system" you describe (i'm talking specifically about local market in Vaud, Lausanne) is already roting with corruption, acquaintances, and abuse from over powerful agencies. Oh and terribly stupid administration ladies at those agencies.

I can provide details published in the media:
Source:
http://www.24heures.ch/vaud-regions/actu/trouver-logement-devient-mission-impossible-2010-01-10
(the availability rate of flats in Lausanne was 0.1%!!!)


So I see and understand what you mean, but you really need to adapt to the real life! And you need to find the real "root cause" of the problem:

Is that some people offering bribes, or is that due to little flat availability, market controller by too powerful groups, cultural preferences, excessive or unplanned migration, etc...?
You are one fish in the Ocean. I am not pointing at you but at the situation you play by the rules. You are not the only one in this madness of trying to find an appartment in the area.

My point is that if you and all the others who can afford it bow and pay the extra asked or sugested, you are keeping the system running this way. And if you stop this by refusing to give in, so many others will be happy to pay it anyway.

The problem will not stop by contributing into it. Is it ethical? No! Why the authorities are not doing something to stop it? Probably because it is profitable for those in charge. If you pass a law against it and get the money from behind, it is pretty hypocrite.

As much as you are in obligation to do so to get an appartment because of lack of options, you are still guilty of bribe (it doesn't matter who receive or who gives the money at this point).

So in this case, you are ready to break the law to do so. This is the whole point of this thread. What is the law for you and how you are ready to follow or break it.

Ps: By the way, you did reply to me for the groan, not the other way around!

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  #46  
Old 21.01.2011, 22:10
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Re: What the law means to you?

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What is the law for you and how you are ready to follow or break
I obey laws I think are right. I don't obey laws I think are wrong. I.e., I obey my conscience.

Tom
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  #47  
Old 21.01.2011, 22:51
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Re: What the law means to you?

I want to break Murphy's law all the time but don't manage to do it
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  #48  
Old 21.01.2011, 23:37
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Re: What the law means to you?

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So if it is offered, it is ok, but if the guy ask for it, he should be reported.... But the law is clear on this. No bribery at all!!
It's the difference between a tip and a service charge.
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  #49  
Old 22.01.2011, 00:19
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What the law means to you?

A man whom was known to me, assaulted me in the street, in Bern at 5 pm, on the 5th May, in daylight. I put up a robust defence and managed to control the maniac until an off duty policeman arresred him.

I charged him with assault, and at the trial I told the judge there were 23 lies in his statement. The judge replied, "So what, that is just his story"

__________________________________________________ ________

In Sion Canton Wallis, at a debtors' meeting it transpired that a local business man "Owned" two companies operating from the same address.

The weaker company (Now bankrupt) had ordered a new Mercedes from the local garage and then promptly sold it at a big discount to the stronger company. (i.e. he got the car very cheaply) At the meeting I asked the debt collecting official if the garage would get their car back again. The official replied probably not, the garage would have to prove that the directors acted in a criminal manner.
__________________________________________________ _________

In my opinion both these two stories above show there was a gross moral failure on the part of the accused, yet the authorities chose not to take any action.
__________________________________________________ _________

A policeman stopped me in Bern as I was driving on an access only road, I was fined 2 x CHF 40 (and I deserved 1 x CHF 40. He charged me twice he said because I drove past 2 warning signs).

But what annoyed me most was the bollocking I got because I was not carrying the original car document, only a photocopy of the Fahrzeugschein.
__________________________________________________ __________

Like many people here, I keep to the 10 commandments and try to avoid the 7 deadly sins, but many times in a week I say to myself "What the heck, just do it!"
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  #50  
Old 22.01.2011, 01:15
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Re: What the law means to you?

Laws are created to keep common people in check. I am not common so they don't mean anything to me.
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  #51  
Old 22.01.2011, 01:20
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Re: What the law means to you?

Laws are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.
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  #52  
Old 22.01.2011, 04:18
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Re: What the law means to you?

i abide by the law, but will break it if I see fit. if it works in my favour and doesnt hurt anyone I will no doubt do it. I like the idea of police but I do not like them one bit here in CH so I have very little to no respect for them and the law they enforce......
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  #53  
Old 22.01.2011, 11:26
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Re: What the law means to you?

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This is the whole point of this thread. What is the law for you and how you are ready to follow or break it.
Hm,
I understand that you seem to have a pretty "compliant" and law abiding belief/behaviour. (that is not a criticism but observation).

Then, let me add something that should make you think "out of your box":
Please imagine you are in 1942, in France, and you ask the same question:
What is the law for you and how you are ready to follow or break it.


Would you be what was called "collaborateur" or a "resistant"?
If you would see a tenant hosting a jew, would you complain that it is not ethical? would you comment that they are still guilty of a crime?

(you don't need to reply, it's just to show you how the context can make your decision very very different).
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  #54  
Old 22.01.2011, 11:31
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Re: What the law means to you?

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Laws are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.

"I am the law. And Order"
Judge Dredd, 2000AD.
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  #55  
Old 22.01.2011, 12:55
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Re: What the law means to you?

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Hm,
I understand that you seem to have a pretty "compliant" and law abiding belief/behaviour. (that is not a criticism but observation).

Then, let me add something that should make you think "out of your box":
Please imagine you are in 1942, in France, and you ask the same question:
What is the law for you and how you are ready to follow or break it.

Would you be what was called "collaborateur" or a "resistant"?
If you would see a tenant hosting a jew, would you complain that it is not ethical? would you comment that they are still guilty of a crime?

(you don't need to reply, it's just to show you how the context can make your decision very very different).
What is this example? If someone is protecting a jew, it will probably be me! Your exemple is absolutely non sens and totally out of context of normal day to day laws and rules. What happened under Hitler and the Nazis is so wrong in all level of ethic and actually prove my point more than yours! If it is about human being, human rights and social ethic, this exemple is the worst you could find.

The problem is that you are using exemple the way it suits you. So lets take your exemple and put it on an ethical level:

The Nazi gives you money for every jew you report to them, will you report them for the money? If everybody else is doing it in your neighbourhood?

So again, you adapt and excuse yourself according of the way the situation suits you. But if you put ethics into it (assuming that we have the same level of ethic) it change the whole results...
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  #56  
Old 22.01.2011, 13:10
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Re: What the law means to you?

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What is this example?
It an exaggeration to point out that just because something is the law, doesn't make it right. Other examples would be segregation laws.

Tom
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  #57  
Old 22.01.2011, 13:18
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Re: What the law means to you?

Ok
The point was the rules or official law at the time (1942, France) were helping the "nazi system".
For example, in 1940 they made a law which was changing the social status of jews and foreigners to be officially "2nd class citizens", with less rights.

So if you were protecting the jews, you were technically "against the law"...

In that particular example, forget the human ethics, human rights, social ethics and focus on the fact: that was an official LAW!

So at the time, if you were protecting a jew, you would not follow the "normal days laws and rules". And yet according to your own scale of "goog/bad" it would be good!
(which I also think that would be good).


So in reply of the topic question What the law means to you?, I stand by my opinion that it depends on the context and the action you do. Offering some money in a system already totally corrupted and with less than 0.1% flat available, is not that bad as abusing and forcing people to pay to obtain a flat.
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Old 22.01.2011, 13:32
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Re: What the law means to you?

Read back the thread please. I gave my opinion about how laws can be broken according of individual level of ethics on specific matter.

I won't repeat every exemple I gave. If you give an exemple as extremist as Nazis and jews, you enter in social ethic. Which will prove my point of reason to break the law.

Breaking the law because you can't find an appartment and want to make the process faster, not what we call a life saving law breaking... It is a selfish decision following your own needs while going against social ethics (screwing other people's chances, making it more difficult for everybody else to find an appartment by approving and accepting the rules of that game)
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Old 22.01.2011, 13:38
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Re: What the law means to you?

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Ok
The point was the rules or official law at the time (1942, France) were helping the "nazi system".
For example, in 1940 they made a law which was changing the social status of jews and foreigners to be officially "2nd class citizens", with less rights.

So if you were protecting the jews, you were technically "against the law"...

In that particular example, forget the human ethics, human rights, social ethics and focus on the fact: that was an official LAW!

So at the time, if you were protecting a jew, you would not follow the "normal days laws and rules". And yet according to your own scale of "goog/bad" it would be good!
(which I also think that would be good).


So in reply of the topic question What the law means to you?, I stand by my opinion that it depends on the context and the action you do. Offering some money in a system already totally corrupted and with less than 0.1% flat available, is not that bad as abusing and forcing people to pay to obtain a flat.
Thank you! First to see the huge difference with your exemple (Nicely way to mess with me by the way! ) But as I said earlier, Laws in my book are not made to be follow no matter what. And I do break the laws but when it comes to social ethics with repercussions on others? No Way!!!

And I also did agree that the system is totally corrupted which may not gives choice to people to act that way. But I also said that as long as everybody will keep playing by those corrupted rules, nothing will change. And that, sadly affect badly those who can't afford those rules...
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Old 22.01.2011, 14:34
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Re: What the law means to you?

Morality starts with the law and ends with you.
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