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  #61  
Old 22.01.2011, 13:39
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Re: What the law means to you?

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Morality starts with the law and ends with you.
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  #62  
Old 22.01.2011, 14:09
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Re: What the law means to you?

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Morality starts with the law and ends with you.
...who's version of morality ? My own morality says all people are equal and nobody should be controlled or enforced or dictated to.

Everyone has a different sense of morality, and laws are the product of the morality of the rich, the powerful and the successful seeking to protect their own interests. Far too many laws are being created, not enough removed. This creates a cycle of ever increasing oppression and the creation of a society that fits the vision of a very small sector of society. Laws are elitist, selective and prejudiced.

I'll bite my tongue, my anarchic core is starting to emerge, and that's not a popular view at all.
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  #63  
Old 22.01.2011, 14:31
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Re: What the law means to you?

I should probably have elaborated a little and possibly chosen different words. And to avoid going into a philosophical barfbag worthy conversation of morality vs ethics vs this, that and the other, I'll keep it simple.

What I meant by the post is that I see the law only as a starting point on right/wrong. I feel comfortable with challenging it where I'm not aligned. It means I don't feel the law has the final word on being a good person nor should it. When I follow the law (I'm rather boring so most of the time), it's not because it 'says so' but because it is aligned with my values.

Apologies if I'm repeating anything as I've only skimmed the thread...
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  #64  
Old 22.01.2011, 14:35
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Re: What the law means to you?

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...who's version of morality ?
You definitely misunderstood my post. That's my point exactly. In my wee world, following the law isn't synonymous with being a good person. See above. =)
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Old 22.01.2011, 15:06
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Re: What the law means to you?

From "The Prophet" by Kahlil Gibran

"Then a lawyer said, "but what of our laws, master"?
and he answered:
You delight in laying down laws
Yet you delight more in breaking them.
Like children playing by the ocean who build sand towers
with constancy and then destroy them with laughter.
But while you build your sand towers the ocean brings more
sand to the shore, and when you destroy them the ocean laughs
with you.
Verily the ocean always laughs with the innocent.

But what of those to whom life is not an ocean, and man-made laws
are not sand towers,
But to whom life is a rock and the law a chisel with which they would
carve it in their own likeness?
What of the cripple who hates dancers?
What of the ox who loves his yoke and deems the elk and deer
of the forest stray and vagrant things?
What of the old serpent who cannot shed his skin and calls
others naked and shameless?
And of him who comes early to the wedding feast, and when over-fed and tired goes his way saying that all feasts are violations and all feasters law-breakers?

What shall I say of these save that they too stand in the sunlight, but with their backs to the sun?
They see only their shadows, and their shadows are their laws.
And what is the sun to them but a caster of shadows?
And what is it to acknowledge the laws but to stoop down and trace
their shadows upon the earth?
But you who walk facing the sun, what images drawn on earth can
hold you?
You who travel with the wind, what weather vane shall direct your course?
What man's laws shall bind you if you break your yoke but upon no man's
prison door?
What laws shall you fear if you dance but stumble against no man's
iron chains?
And who is he that shall bring you to judgement if you tear off your
garment yet leave it in no man's path?
People of Orphalese, you can muffle the drum and you can loosen the
strings of the lyre, but who shall command the skylark not to sing?"
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  #66  
Old 22.01.2011, 15:21
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Re: What the law means to you?

There are two different philosophies that I see the law being applied with:
Letter of the Law: This seems to be when the law is set out and any infraction of it that is caught is punished, no matter what the reason or consequences of that action were.
Spirit of the Law: This is where the law is applied where appropriate based on the reason and the consequences of the infraction.
Personally I believe the only way to have a good judicial system is to follow the Spirit of the Law. After all somebody speeding down the road in their car because the person sitting next to them is bleeding to death should not necessarily suffer the full consequences of that speeding if they are caught. On the other hand, if they kill a kid just outside of a school while speeding in the same situation, they could be said to have not thought their actions through properly.
The problem of course with following the spirit of the law is that you need to have an educated population, judiciary and very transparent processes.
If you donít have these factors, sometimes letter of the law is the only way that you get fair and effective justice.
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  #67  
Old 22.01.2011, 16:35
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Re: What the law means to you?

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You definitely misunderstood my post. That's my point exactly. In my wee world, following the law isn't synonymous with being a good person. See above. =)
Did I ? I guess you need to be clearer next time and avoid ambiguity. Or was it irony ?
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  #68  
Old 22.01.2011, 16:59
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Re: What the law means to you?

Erm...I think there is a bit of difference between the circumstances arising out of illegal occupation of a country by a dictatorial foreign power which chooses to impose its warped concept of law on the occupied country and the decision about whether or not to abide by laws enacted via a well-established democratic process.

Cheers,
Nick

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Hm,
I understand that you seem to have a pretty "compliant" and law abiding belief/behaviour. (that is not a criticism but observation).

Then, let me add something that should make you think "out of your box":
Please imagine you are in 1942, in France, and you ask the same question:
What is the law for you and how you are ready to follow or break it.


Would you be what was called "collaborateur" or a "resistant"?
If you would see a tenant hosting a jew, would you complain that it is not ethical? would you comment that they are still guilty of a crime?

(you don't need to reply, it's just to show you how the context can make your decision very very different).
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  #69  
Old 22.01.2011, 18:51
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Re: What the law means to you?

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Morality starts with the law and ends with you.
Why me? That's not fair. Take some responsibility yourself!!
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  #70  
Old 22.01.2011, 19:31
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Re: What the law means to you?

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Why me? That's not fair. Take some responsibility yourself!!
No. And you can't make me. *sticks out tongue*
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Old 22.01.2011, 19:33
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Re: What the law means to you?

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Did I ? I guess you need to be clearer next time and avoid ambiguity. Or was it irony ?
But it's so much more fun sometimes when people misunderstand and go on long rants.
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Old 23.01.2011, 12:43
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Re: What the law means to you?

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Erm...I think there is a bit of difference between the circumstances arising out of illegal occupation of a country by a dictatorial foreign power which chooses to impose its warped concept of law on the occupied country and the decision about whether or not to abide by laws enacted via a well-established democratic process.

Cheers,
Nick
there are also areas that are not so clear. for example slavery in the US. where 'democracy' is without universal suffrage and without protection for minorities, being law doesn't make it right (and arguably not necessarily even with these attributes).
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