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Old 12.10.2011, 09:06
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What is defined as "Insider Trading"?

Just interested in the hypothetical situations (don't worry, its not about my business and I'm not about to go to jail!)

Are either of these situations legally classified as "insider trading"?

1. If I work in a division of a quoted business which is material to the fortunes of the larger corporation and I know that the business is having a good or a bad quarter....not because I've seen financial results, but because I can just see from sales reports, or how busy the factories are, how I think the business is doing?

2. If I subscribe to Mintel or to other reports that show market share and sales numbers for major companies on a monthly basis....if I buy those reports as a non-employee, and buy or go short on stocks based on those market trends? What about if I do the same as an employee?
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Old 12.10.2011, 09:49
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Re: What is defined as "Insider Trading"?

I'm not a finance person but at a previous job we were always cautioned about buying any stock in the company that wasn't part of a regularly scheduled stock purchase scheme because of something similar to what you describe in situation 1, and the difficulty in showing that our purchase wasn't based on accidentally seeing some report we weren't supposed to. Apparently someone in the past had been questioned (not as serious as it sounds) after buying a few hundred shares before good news. Of course, selling is a different matter as you should be free to sell as you see fit, or as the need for cash requires. But it can still be viewed as suspicious. It's difficult to see how you could be prosecuted for observing how busy a company is, but I think the issue is proving that that is all you based your decision on.

At another company I worked for they had to move up an announcement about restructuring by 10 days because someone sent a document to the wrong printer in the UK. There was a big scramble to make the announcement before the US markets opened.

I think 2 is fine as the info you would be acting on is in the public domain.
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Old 12.10.2011, 10:02
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Re: What is defined as "Insider Trading"?

Using commercially sensitive information that you should not have access to for gain.

Using commercially sensitive information that you have access to legally, e.g. as an employee of a company, that put you at an "unfair" advantage to make buying/selling decisions.

So
1) probably yes it is insider trading depending on the mood of the judge
2) probably not

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Old 12.10.2011, 10:04
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Re: What is defined as "Insider Trading"?

That would theoretically be if you were a Swedish marketing company for example and had access to a large database where thousands of people in another (neutral nation) were all swimming around like tiny tadpoles in a pond interacting with each other and giving each other useful information and then you decided to start sprinkle your Swedish food onto the pond in the hope that your closed community would gobble up all those exciting offers and make you lots of money.

But then some of the tadpoles read the sign by the pond that simply read "If you want to determine your own life, man up and grow some legs and hop on with your life, there's more than just one pond out there". Unfortunately, just as some of the tadpoles did indeed grow some legs and demonstrate the ability to croak, a garlic munching beret wearing unshaven l'homme came upon the pond by chance and took away all of the frogs and served their legs for tea. Because it's a cruel world in "insider trading" and we're just tadpoles in the cruel, cruel pond of capitalism.
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Old 12.10.2011, 10:07
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Re: What is defined as "Insider Trading"?

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Are either of these situations legally classified as "insider trading"?

1. If I work in a division of a quoted business which is material to the fortunes of the larger corporation and I know that the business is having a good or a bad quarter....not because I've seen financial results, but because I can just see from sales reports, or how busy the factories are, how I think the business is doing?

Yes this could be deemed to be insider trading... Anything information that is not publicaly available that you rely on to make a trading decision could be deemed to be insider trading, if in doubt don't do it!

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2. If I subscribe to Mintel or to other reports that show market share and sales numbers for major companies on a monthly basis....if I buy those reports as a non-employee, and buy or go short on stocks based on those market trends? What about if I do the same as an employee?
This is not insider trading as long as the information is publicaly available.

If in doubt again don't do it or confirm with your compliance department!

In any case you are unlikely to be prosecuted unless you make a shit load of money, and you are only likely to make a shit load of money if you have real big inside info just before a big announcement.
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Old 12.10.2011, 10:11
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Re: What is defined as "Insider Trading"?

Interesting topic.

3. I'm in the pub, chatting with my mate and he says "I'm a bit worried, we just lost our main customer and I might get laid off"? He has insider information, but he's not seeking any advantage from it. If I act on this information, am I insider dealing?
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Old 12.10.2011, 10:14
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Re: What is defined as "Insider Trading"?

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Interesting topic.

3. I'm in the pub, chatting with my mate and he says "I'm a bit worried, we just lost our main customer and I might get laid off"? He has insider information, but he's not seeking any advantage from it. If I act on this information, am I insider dealing?
You will both be in the shit yes!
He will be done for tipping off, and you'll be done for insider trading!

There is no way around it mate! If you know you're ****ed!

In fact your mate would also be done if he gives out any hints on how the business is doing!

Edit: This is all theoratical anyway, as I previously said unless you make a shit load of money you'reprobably gonna be fine, but would you really want to take your mate's word for it?
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Old 12.10.2011, 10:16
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Re: What is defined as "Insider Trading"?

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1. If I work in a division of a quoted business which is material to the fortunes of the larger corporation and I know that the business is having a good or a bad quarter....not because I've seen financial results, but because I can just see from sales reports, or how busy the factories are, how I think the business is doing?
Unless you are a corporate officer, this is unlikely to be insider trading. In most companies, if you are genuinely in a position to have access to insider information that would give you the potential to undertake insider trading, there are typically safeguards in place to prevent you abusing that position.

There may be quiet periods during which you cannot purchase/sell stock, or you may be required to give advanced notice of any trades. In our company, in addition to corporate officers, a number of senior finance employees (who prepare the quarterly & annual results and therefore have access to the numbers before they're public) are subject to these restrictions, as are employees who are working on mergers & acquisitions.

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2. If I subscribe to Mintel or to other reports that show market share and sales numbers for major companies on a monthly basis....if I buy those reports as a non-employee, and buy or go short on stocks based on those market trends? What about if I do the same as an employee?
If I understand this correctly, this is not insider trading. You're making a decision to invest in a stock based on public information (Mintel). Regardless of whether you're an employee or not, this is not inside information.
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Old 12.10.2011, 10:17
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Re: What is defined as "Insider Trading"?

Even 1 could get you in trouble in some jurisdictions. Scenario: Listed Company (LiCo) buys 1000 tons of your product (YP) each month and use it to make one of their core products (CP). They can't get the product from a competitor, and the amount of YP they use is in direct correlation to their output of CP. Suddenly, they reduce their order to 500 tons of YP. Your delivery guys tell you that they've seen much more YP bags from the previous month's delivery then usual in the storage area at LiCo's plant. LiCo's official line is that trading in CP is flat.

You decide to sell all of LiCo's shares you own. Soon enough, LiCo issues a statment telling the world that business is dire. The shares plunge.

Have you committed illegal insider dealing?

UK: You've committed Market Abuse, simply because you traded based on invormation sensitive for the market and not generally known. No further relationship to the company in question is required.

US: maybe, if your position makes you a "constructive insider" (someone who receives confidential information from a listed company while providing services to that company, thus acquiring a fiduciary duty - USC, Dirks vs. SEC). The main example are financial advisors and lawyers though.

Germany: as a mere supplier, you are not covered by the defintion of "insider" unless you own 10% or more of LiCo.

Last edited by tom tulpe; 12.10.2011 at 10:19. Reason: spelllllink^Hg
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Old 12.10.2011, 10:21
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Re: What is defined as "Insider Trading"?

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Unless you are a corporate officer, this is unlikely to be insider trading. In most companies, if you are genuinely in a position to have access to insider information that would give you the potential to undertake insider trading, there are typically safeguards in place to prevent you abusing that position.
You'd think that would extend to IT staff, but in all the time I've had full access to ERP data in various companies, I've not been subject to restrictions (mangement above a certain level couldn't trade in certain periods, as you describe).
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Old 12.10.2011, 10:24
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Re: What is defined as "Insider Trading"?

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You'd think that would extend to IT staff, but in all the time I've had full access to ERP data in various companies, I've not been subject to restrictions (mangement above a certain level couldn't trade in certain periods, as you describe).
That's because everyone assumes that anyone who works in IT couldn't possible understand what all those numbers really mean.
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Old 12.10.2011, 10:27
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Re: What is defined as "Insider Trading"?

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Yes this could be deemed to be insider trading... Anything information that is not publicaly available that you rely on to make a trading decision could be deemed to be insider trading, if in doubt don't do it!
I'm not planning to do anything.....its hypothetical, I swear!

In the first situation....when I see that the factory is busy, or I see that sales are lower, I only know half the story. Maybe production has been transferred, or maybe stocks were high. Sales may be lower, but prices may have gone up so profit may be higher.

If I take a gamble based on half facts and I'm right, how can that be insider dealing?

Another few examples.....

1. Lets say I pay thirty people to stand in the biggest Coops here and monitor daily how much Emmi cheese is being sold vs the same day last year and use the data to buy or go short on Emmi stock, is that insider trading? Probably not, because it is public.

2. OK, lets say I stand outside the Emmi warehouse counting trucks. Again, probably ok

3. What if I ask the security guard to count the trucks for me? Hmmmm.....gets interesting

4. What if I get my brother who works in the Emmi warehouse to tell me?

5. What if I am the Emmi warehouse manager?

Where on that spectrum does Insider Trading kick in?

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Interesting topic.

3. I'm in the pub, chatting with my mate and he says "I'm a bit worried, we just lost our main customer and I might get laid off"? He has insider information, but he's not seeking any advantage from it. If I act on this information, am I insider dealing?

Great qu...
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Old 12.10.2011, 10:37
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Re: What is defined as "Insider Trading"?

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1. Lets say I pay thirty people to stand in the biggest Coops here and monitor daily how much Emmi cheese is being sold vs the same day last year and use the data to buy or go short on Emmi stock, is that insider trading? Probably not, because it is public.

2. OK, lets say I stand outside the Emmi warehouse counting trucks. Again, probably ok

3. What if I ask the security guard to count the trucks for me? Hmmmm.....gets interesting
All of these are totally legitimate -- in fact, there are some legendary stories about Warren Buffett standing outside factories counting trucks going in-and-out as part of his due diligence. And when he wanted to learn more about the insurance industry, he famously knocked on GEICO's door and talked at length with the first person he met.

The reason this doesn't breach insider trading is that there's no duty of trust -- there was no expectation that he was given information that would be kept confidential.
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Old 12.10.2011, 10:37
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Re: What is defined as "Insider Trading"?

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You will both be in the shit yes!
He will be done for tipping off, and you'll be done for insider trading!

There is no way around it mate! If you know you're ****ed!

In fact your mate would also be done if he gives out any hints on how the business is doing!

Edit: This is all theoratical anyway, as I previously said unless you make a shit load of money you'reprobably gonna be fine, but would you really want to take your mate's word for it?
You can't be done for tipping off just by chatting in the pub about how work is going...i don't buy that at all
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Old 12.10.2011, 10:44
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Re: What is defined as "Insider Trading"?

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You can't be done for tipping off just by chatting in the pub about how work is going...i don't buy that at all
It depends on who you are. If you're the CFO of a company and disclose confidential information, or you trade on the confidential information the CFO has disclosed, you're probably going to jail.

If Bob from the factory says "sure seems busy these days" and you trade on that "nugget", you're in the clear.
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Old 12.10.2011, 10:52
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Re: What is defined as "Insider Trading"?

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It depends on who you are. If you're the CFO of a company and disclose confidential information, or you trade on the confidential information the CFO has disclosed, you're probably going to jail.

If Bob from the factory says "sure seems busy these days" and you trade on that "nugget", you're in the clear.
Agreed. But thats not what the dude or dudette above said
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Old 12.10.2011, 10:53
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Re: What is defined as "Insider Trading"?

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You can't be done for tipping off just by chatting in the pub about how work is going...i don't buy that at all
Tell that to the judge...
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Old 12.10.2011, 11:10
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Re: What is defined as "Insider Trading"?

It looks like you're pretty safe in Switzerland in all the above scenarios. And more.

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According to Article 161 of the Swiss CriminalCode (SCC), management transactions in Switzerland are only forbidden when based on “confidential information” that has a serious impact on prices. The law restricts the term “confidential information” to “the issuance of new securities, mergers or other events of similar impact”1. The Swiss Federal Supreme Court adheres to a restrictive interpretation of what “confidential information” is. As a result, trades based on earnings announcements, even if they contain important information such as extraordinary profits or losses, do not fall under the criminal offence of insider trading in Switzerland.
http://www.alexandria.unisg.ch/export/DL/55638.pdf
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Old 12.10.2011, 11:23
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Re: What is defined as "Insider Trading"?

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It looks like you're pretty safe in Switzerland in all the above scenarios. And more.
Well who'da thunk it...
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Old 12.10.2011, 11:25
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Re: What is defined as "Insider Trading"?

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1. If I work in a division of a quoted business which is material to the fortunes of the larger corporation and I know that the business is having a good or a bad quarter....not because I've seen financial results, but because I can just see from sales reports, or how busy the factories are, how I think the business is doing?

2. If I subscribe to Mintel or to other reports that show market share and sales numbers for major companies on a monthly basis....if I buy those reports as a non-employee, and buy or go short on stocks based on those market trends? What about if I do the same as an employee?
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Interesting topic.

3. I'm in the pub, chatting with my mate and he says "I'm a bit worried, we just lost our main customer and I might get laid off"? He has insider information, but he's not seeking any advantage from it. If I act on this information, am I insider dealing?

defining insider trading is a bit like defining what is sexy or obscene - the intent is as important as the content.

1. You would be seen as having access to non-public information. However, if it was material non-public information, your employer would have warned you already and made you sign stuff to the effect. I would say that is not insider trading, but a court's verdict would depend on the jurisdiction, how much money you make off the trade, whether you tip off others, and which side of the bed the judge got off...

2. is not insider trading. You are acting based on publicly available information.

3. the information you have is not publicly available, but I suspect that in this case the prosecution would have to prove intent on the part of your mate to profit from such information.
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