Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Other/general
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #221  
Old 07.01.2010, 22:21
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ticino & London
Posts: 1,969
Groaned at 170 Times in 93 Posts
Thanked 1,132 Times in 622 Posts
Cashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [Ins and Outs] Buying Property in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
I too thought there was a lot of disincentives in place to deter this kind of property speculation. If that's what this is.

The agency in question is large and respected. We have viewed a number of properties with different agents working for them.

I have already fired off an email cancelling the appointment saying we were not interested at the price on the attached brochure.

You would think he would know better than to go back to people who know the property's previous list price. Strange indeed.

I will call my mortgage guy tomorrow and get his take on it as well as another agent I know.
You have to put your brain in the mode of the seller.
He owns the property and can do what he likes with it and try and sell it at any price he wants to.
If he puts an extra CHF400,000 on the price and can get away with it; well good for him and you would do the same.
He may be testing the market and actually not that bothered if he sells the property at this moment in time. He might have another house in mind but cannot buy it unless he gets the price for this one and knows that he will stay put if he can't. It may be rented at the moment so has a rental income on it but if he can sell it and make a profit, all the better. You don't know his circumstances.

At the end of the day, YOU need to look at the property and decide the maximum you are willing to pay and make an offer below that to negotiate to what you are prepared to pay. You loose nothing if he doesn't accept aprt from your time.

It really is that simple.
__________________
I do not have friends..........I have contingent liabilities
Reply With Quote
  #222  
Old 07.01.2010, 22:30
Mel07's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 753
Groaned at 14 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 947 Times in 370 Posts
Mel07 has a reputation beyond reputeMel07 has a reputation beyond reputeMel07 has a reputation beyond reputeMel07 has a reputation beyond reputeMel07 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [Ins and Outs] Buying Property in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
You have to put your brain in the mode of the seller.
He owns the property and can do what he likes with it and try and sell it at any price he wants to.
If he puts an extra CHF400,000 on the price and can get away with it; well good for him and you would do the same.
He may be testing the market and actually not that bothered if he sells the property at this moment in time. He might have another house in mind but cannot buy it unless he gets the price for this one and knows that he will stay put if he can't. It may be rented at the moment so has a rental income on it but if he can sell it and make a profit, all the better. You don't know his circumstances.

At the end of the day, YOU need to look at the property and decide the maximum you are willing to pay and make an offer below that to negotiate to what you are prepared to pay. You loose nothing if he doesn't accept aprt from your time.

It really is that simple.
Err, thanks for the property lesson Cashboy.

The seller sure can try and sell his property at any price he chooses. Good on him if he can get his price. We have seen more than a few examples of overpriced crap in our 18 months of looking. A lot of it still sitting there on the market.

The strange thing here is a 400k price increase in four months. It sounds more like London at the height of the property bubble than sleepy little Switzerland.
Reply With Quote
  #223  
Old 07.01.2010, 22:34
Web Walker
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: [Ins and Outs] Buying Property in Switzerland

ok, sorry, didn't see the reference to September Speed reading after a few glasses...
When you say New Owners, do you think the sale in September went ahead? It takes a few weeks to complete a sale, so I can't believe after a matter of weeks in the house someone has re-listed it, with the same agent, unless a real crisis occurred, such as job loss, bereavement etc but then they wouldn't look for a huge increase.

Sounds like the sale fell through and the owners, maybe advised by the agent are looking to sell at a higher price. I would still go back with your original offer, especially if you are in a position to offer them a quick sale.

But anyway, take some advice from people more professional than me
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #224  
Old 07.01.2010, 22:37
Mel07's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 753
Groaned at 14 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 947 Times in 370 Posts
Mel07 has a reputation beyond reputeMel07 has a reputation beyond reputeMel07 has a reputation beyond reputeMel07 has a reputation beyond reputeMel07 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [Ins and Outs] Buying Property in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
ok, sorry, didn't see the reference to September Speed reading after a few glasses...
When you say New Owners, do you think the sale in September went ahead? It takes a few weeks to complete a sale, so I can't believe after a matter of weeks in the house someone has re-listed it, with the same agent, unless a real crisis occurred, such as job loss, bereavement etc but then they wouldn't look for a huge increase.

Sounds like the sale fell through and the owners, maybe advised by the agent are looking to sell at a higher price. I would still go back with your original offer, especially if you are in a position to offer them a quick sale.

But anyway, take some advice from people more professional than me
Maybe you're right. My first thought when the agent contacted me was that the sale had fallen through. But when I saw the new price assumed something different.

I will try to get to the bottom of it and report back.
Reply With Quote
  #225  
Old 07.01.2010, 22:40
Web Walker
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: [Ins and Outs] Buying Property in Switzerland

good luck.
look forward to hearing what the result is.
we are also looking for quite some time, it ain't easy
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #226  
Old 07.01.2010, 22:55
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,442
Groaned at 18 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 1,980 Times in 1,176 Posts
CH_Me has a reputation beyond reputeCH_Me has a reputation beyond reputeCH_Me has a reputation beyond reputeCH_Me has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [Ins and Outs] Buying Property in Switzerland

In Zug it is written in a local publication when property is sold, showing the sellers and the new owners. Perhaps you can find a record of the owner changing to confirm that it was sold 4 months ago.

My guess is that it sold quickly and the owners withdrew from the sale, thinking that they had priced it too low.

I paid a fair bit less than my house was initially listed at. With so few similar property sales to compare against, no one really knows what a place is worth until they try to sell it. My new neighbours were curious as to what I had paid to get an idea what their own places were worth. One place on my street has sat empty for years because no one will pay what the seller is asking.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank CH_Me for this useful post:
  #227  
Old 08.01.2010, 11:46
Mel07's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 753
Groaned at 14 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 947 Times in 370 Posts
Mel07 has a reputation beyond reputeMel07 has a reputation beyond reputeMel07 has a reputation beyond reputeMel07 has a reputation beyond reputeMel07 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [Ins and Outs] Buying Property in Switzerland

Status update on Lausanne real estate bubble...

The agent replied to my email questioning the crazy price increase on the house. Here is his response:

"Indeed, the price at slightly increased since summer; some work was however undertaken in the house since your visit.
Since this house interests you, which is the maximum price which you could offer?"



The "slight" price increase he refers to represents a 30% price hike!

Real estate agents. The same the world over.
Reply With Quote
  #228  
Old 11.01.2010, 18:13
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: zurich
Posts: 15
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
wge001 has no particular reputation at present
Re: What to look for when buying a house in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
So how do you raise the 20%. There are three things you can do all involving investments for the future (Vorsorge).

2. Pledge your pension money. The money stays in your account and the bank has some form of security. Theoretically the bank can take it if you default. However they are not able to do this quite as easily as you might think as the money is tied until you retire or leave and they have no access till that date...
Hi Richard,

Thanks a lot for your posting! Interesting to know the possibility of pledging pension for property prurchase. Could you pls elaborate a bit more on how this should work practically? My husband and I both have a sizeable amount in 2nd pillar and we are now considering purchasing an apartment. Can we pledge this amount, thus reducing the 20% deposit or this can only be pledged against 1st/2nd mortagage?

Many thanks in advance!
Reply With Quote
  #229  
Old 13.01.2010, 11:46
Web Walker
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: What to look for when buying a house in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Hi Richard,

Thanks a lot for your posting! Interesting to know the possibility of pledging pension for property prurchase. Could you pls elaborate a bit more on how this should work practically? My husband and I both have a sizeable amount in 2nd pillar and we are now considering purchasing an apartment. Can we pledge this amount, thus reducing the 20% deposit or this can only be pledged against 1st/2nd mortagage?

Many thanks in advance!
You can pledge your pension as part of your 20% "own capital". Some banks are reluctant to accept a pledge for the whole deposit though. One thing to remember, you are pledging your assets (pension), in return the bank lends you more money, on which you pay them interest until you repay the pledge....
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #230  
Old 13.01.2010, 14:02
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ticino & London
Posts: 1,969
Groaned at 170 Times in 93 Posts
Thanked 1,132 Times in 622 Posts
Cashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [Ins and Outs] Buying Property in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Err, thanks for the property lesson Cashboy.
That is OK..............I hope you learnt something

Quote:
View Post
The seller sure can try and sell his property at any price he chooses. Good on him if he can get his price. We have seen more than a few examples of overpriced crap in our 18 months of looking. A lot of it still sitting there on the market.
Yep and that is exactly the same in any country anywhere in the world.

Quote:
View Post
The strange thing here is a 400k price increase in four months. It sounds more like London at the height of the property bubble than sleepy little Switzerland.
You know our opinions about estate agents.
These people with this house for sale probably questioned why the house had not been sold and the estate agent didn't want to say "It is too expensive" but said "well if you do this ...........and this it will sell", so these people have done this extra work (we all know doesn't generally help sell a house unless believe in those UK property programmes) at a cost and put the price up. They have no hope in selling that house at that price unless some wife "really really WANTS it"; you know (and don't deny it), it is the wife that really decides which house you are moving into.
__________________
I do not have friends..........I have contingent liabilities
Reply With Quote
  #231  
Old 14.02.2010, 23:13
Grem's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Baden
Posts: 52
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 19 Times in 10 Posts
Grem has earned some respectGrem has earned some respect
Re: [Ins and Outs] Buying Property in Switzerland

Can anyone tell me what the current trend is with swiss house prices. We are looking at buying in AG, or ZH near to Baden in the medium term but if strong growth in prices is forecast would consider taking the plunge sooner.
Reply With Quote
  #232  
Old 14.02.2010, 23:27
AbFab's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 6,869
Groaned at 311 Times in 208 Posts
Thanked 8,851 Times in 3,139 Posts
AbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [Ins and Outs] Buying Property in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Can anyone tell me what the current trend is with swiss house prices. We are looking at buying in AG, or ZH near to Baden in the medium term but if strong growth in prices is forecast would consider taking the plunge sooner.
Property prices remain fairly stable. There was never a boom as in the US/UK, thus never a bust. Demand for good properties in sought-after areas will always be high, over-priced rubbish at the end of a runway will always be a problem to shift at any price.

Long term outlook? As long as land is limited, the population keeps increasing and the economy keeps working, prices should gently move up wards - that's perhaps 10% in 5 years. It will take you 2 years to find somewhere (unless it's at the end of a runway)...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank AbFab for this useful post:
  #233  
Old 15.02.2010, 09:29
ljm ljm is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Geneva
Posts: 752
Groaned at 7 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 372 Times in 218 Posts
ljm has an excellent reputationljm has an excellent reputationljm has an excellent reputationljm has an excellent reputation
Re: [Ins and Outs] Buying Property in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
In Zug it is written in a local publication when property is sold, showing the sellers and the new owners. Perhaps you can find a record of the owner changing to confirm that it was sold 4 months ago...
Transaction values are not made available in the public domain in Vaud. But changes in ownership are. What you can do is check registre foncier to see if the house changed hands in the last 4 months: http://www.vd.ch/fr/themes/territoir...s-immobiliers/. It is not very transparent, I know, but you will at least know if it was really sold or not.

As blunt as his post is, I have to agree with Cashboy on substance: you are buying in what is still very much a seller's market and people will put on their houses the most ridiculous asking prices. Sometimes they can get away with it. Sometimes they will be forced to negotiate.

It is a win-win situation for them if the house has any attractiveness. The number of similar houses on sale at the same time in that area is probably close to zero. If they increase the asking price by 30% as in your case, even if they have to go down on the price, it will almost surely not go down by more than 20%. Frustrating, I know, but that's life on Lac Léman at the moment.
Reply With Quote
  #234  
Old 10.03.2010, 19:08
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 8
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
luciana has no particular reputation at present
Re: [Ins and Outs] Buying Property in Switzerland

Hey everyone,

I read this entire thread and found it to be amazing! Lots of useful information here.

Me and my husband just got a baby and realized that the appartment we rent today is too small. So we want to move and the question about buying an appartment came in.

Let me tell you that I never bought any appartment in my life nor have I ever got money from the bank, so this is all very new to me.

So here goes my question: Lets suppose I buy an appartment of 1m.
I need 20% of the appartment price to buy it (200k). Then I pay per year a certain percentage of the remaining value to the bank (lets say 3% of 800k). Ok fair enough this is a bit less than the current rent we have.
Now I did some calculations and there is no way that in 10 years I can save the remaining 800k. This would mean that I have to save about 6k per month

So what happens at the end of the 10 years? Can I sell the appartment to pay my debt? Does the bank take my apartment from me and my invested 200k? Can I negotiate a new mortgage?

I could save 2.5k in addition to the mortgage fees I have seen so far, but that will not be enough

Any insights?
Reply With Quote
  #235  
Old 10.03.2010, 19:12
BHBT's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: was Züri
Posts: 953
Groaned at 19 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 892 Times in 413 Posts
BHBT has a reputation beyond reputeBHBT has a reputation beyond reputeBHBT has a reputation beyond reputeBHBT has a reputation beyond reputeBHBT has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [Ins and Outs] Buying Property in Switzerland

Many mortgages here are interest only, in that you're only paying the 800k loan interest and not any capital of the apartment/property itself.
It's accepted since the real estate market is fairly stable and you've paid 20% of the property sale price yourself which covers the bank for any fluctuations in the market.
I strongly suggest making an appointment with a bank mortgage adviser - they will do all the calculations for you and advise you about interest only and interest+capital mortgages, as well as the options for fixed or variable interest rates.
Reply With Quote
  #236  
Old 10.03.2010, 19:45
Carlos R's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Roundn'about Basel
Posts: 7,185
Groaned at 113 Times in 101 Posts
Thanked 9,822 Times in 4,137 Posts
Carlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [Ins and Outs] Buying Property in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
<snip>

Any insights?
Usually you don't pay the 100% of the mortgage.

Most banks give you a 65/35% split of 1st and 2nd mortgage.

The 2nd mortgage (35%) is what you pay back.

The 65% you keep ad infinitum, i.e. never pay off.

The 20% deposit is deducted from the 35%, so in effect you are amortising the 15%.
Reply With Quote
  #237  
Old 10.03.2010, 19:45
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ticino & London
Posts: 1,969
Groaned at 170 Times in 93 Posts
Thanked 1,132 Times in 622 Posts
Cashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [Ins and Outs] Buying Property in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
So here goes my question: Lets suppose I buy an appartment of 1m.
I need 20% of the appartment price to buy it (200k). Then I pay per year a certain percentage of the remaining value to the bank (lets say 3% of 800k). Ok fair enough this is a bit less than the current rent we have.
Now I did some calculations and there is no way that in 10 years I can save the remaining 800k. This would mean that I have to save about 6k per month
For a start; your landlord is doing the maintenance of your current rented property; you will have replacement and maintenance costs over the years on your property so I doubt if you will be saving anything.
You will also have invested CHF200,000 into the building not getting any interest on it as you would in a bank (though not much). You will have notary costs and duties on purchase which is money just gone.
Provided property goes up by at least 2% per annum. On a financila side; I would guess you will break even in 6 years at the earliest.
My advise would be to buy only if you want the house as your home (i.e. not as an investment) and intend staying in it at least 10 years.
__________________
I do not have friends..........I have contingent liabilities
Reply With Quote
  #238  
Old 10.03.2010, 20:39
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,936
Groaned at 116 Times in 74 Posts
Thanked 5,864 Times in 2,079 Posts
Kittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [Ins and Outs] Buying Property in Switzerland

Rental also means that you are at the mercy of crazy landlords, random price rises in existing rentals and, in the Zurich area, a steady increase in the cost of renting an apartment, i.e. they add a bit more to the rent every time someone new comes in.

I will be moving into a place that was for sale and is being newly-built for next year, currently flats for rent of that size in that area cost about a quarter more than I will be paying the bank (or rather, my father, who will then pay the bank, before anyone gets confused regarding past comments on being completely broke, I'm still broke) per month including the Nebenkosten and amortisation.

It will be cheaper per person than the shared apartment I am renting now, with a much higher standard of living. Apartments are usually well-maintained but on the whole, the landlord is not interested in having everything at a top standard, whereas if you buy, you can choose what gets put in and are the one to decide whether you need a new bathroom or not...

But as Cashboy said, with all the hassle (don't buy before having it all looked through by an independent architect or building expert) you have, it's probably best viewed as a long-term option, even if they are increasingly discussing the abolition of the Eigenmietwert. Obviously the banks don't want the EMW to go, as there are quite a few people who would simply pay off the mortgage as quickly as possible and live comfortably rent-free...
Reply With Quote
  #239  
Old 11.03.2010, 01:21
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Luzern currently
Posts: 2,565
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 720 Times in 373 Posts
Richard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [Ins and Outs] Buying Property in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
For a start; your landlord is doing the maintenance of your current rented property; you will have replacement and maintenance costs over the years on your property so I doubt if you will be saving anything.
You will also have invested CHF200,000 into the building not getting any interest on it as you would in a bank (though not much). You will have notary costs and duties on purchase which is money just gone.
Provided property goes up by at least 2% per annum. On a financila side; I would guess you will break even in 6 years at the earliest.
My advise would be to buy only if you want the house as your home (i.e. not as an investment) and intend staying in it at least 10 years.
Recalculate including the tax differences and tell me that financially you will break even in 6 years? If you have 200K in spare cash you are going to be paying wealth tax which is money just gone and will wipe out your interest which is also taxed. If you have a mortgage then the 200K in the here described proposal is gone and most other assets are likely just offsetting your loan.

On one of our properties I have a loan of 960000 and pay just about CHF 700 per month in interest. If I say the property would at least cost 3500 or more per month to rent then the landlord would certainly be paying plenty in replacement and maintenance costs

I would highly recommend buying good property especially around Zurich (if you can find it) even as an investment at the moment. Buy to rent is very lucrative at the moment with interest rates being under 1%. The Notary and any other additional costs such as registration etc are minimal and shared with the seller so as not to be a hurdle and certainly will not amount to more than 10K(probably 5 or 6) unless you have a hell of a big house.
Reply With Quote
  #240  
Old 11.03.2010, 10:35
ticino's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 853
Groaned at 37 Times in 26 Posts
Thanked 386 Times in 219 Posts
ticino has earned some respectticino has earned some respect
Re: [Ins and Outs] Buying Property in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Rental also means that you are at the mercy of crazy landlords, random price rises in existing rentals and, in the Zurich area, a steady increase in the cost of renting an apartment, i.e. they add a bit more to the rent every time someone new comes in.

I will be moving into a place that was for sale and is being newly-built for next year, currently flats for rent of that size in that area cost about a quarter more than I will be paying the bank (or rather, my father, who will then pay the bank, before anyone gets confused regarding past comments on being completely broke, I'm still broke) per month including the Nebenkosten and amortisation.

It will be cheaper per person than the shared apartment I am renting now, with a much higher standard of living. Apartments are usually well-maintained but on the whole, the landlord is not interested in having everything at a top standard, whereas if you buy, you can choose what gets put in and are the one to decide whether you need a new bathroom or not...

But as Cashboy said, with all the hassle (don't buy before having it all looked through by an independent architect or building expert) you have, it's probably best viewed as a long-term option, even if they are increasingly discussing the abolition of the Eigenmietwert. Obviously the banks don't want the EMW to go, as there are quite a few people who would simply pay off the mortgage as quickly as possible and live comfortably rent-free...
A friend of mine bought a house is is now renting it out as he doesn't need it for a couple of years. He made a downpayment of around 200K and now pays 800 p.m. on his mortgage, but gets well over 3000 in rent. That's a gross profit of over 20K per year - compare that to the 200K equity invested and the ROE looks pretty good.

Sure, you take the risk of interest rates suddenly sky rocketing and have to maintain the property which might cost you ~5K a year on a new building - still, to me the case for buying looks very strong. It's just so difficult to find something around Zurich, especially something that works with the 20% downpayment required....
__________________
Conclusions contained in this post are based on assumptions which may or may not be correct, being based upon factors and events subject to uncertainty. Do not take them seriously or personally.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:17.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0