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  #41  
Old 06.12.2020, 17:13
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Re: Solar Panels Advice

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So, let me understand this:

You save 400 a year for a 21k investment? Or have I misunderstood?
I see a swing from +2,200 to -400. Or 2,800 a year for a 21k investment. Payoff in 8 and a bit years. Plus you can write the 21k off your taxes.
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  #42  
Old 06.12.2020, 17:29
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Re: Solar Panels Advice

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I installed 48 panels last year, 13.8KwH capacity on excellent exposure, cost Chf 28k, subsidy Chf 7.25k, so, Chf 21k cost.

Previous electricity bill Chf 2.2k/annuel, now i get Chf 400.-- per year as rebate !

Fully well worthwhile, ask Group E for quote.
Fine as a hobby - very poor investment.
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  #43  
Old 06.12.2020, 17:44
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Re: Solar Panels Advice

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I see a swing from +2,200 to -400. Or 2,800 a year for a 21k investment. Payoff in 8 and a bit years. Plus you can write the 21k off your taxes.
If that‘s the case, I can see the sense. But that is not how I read or understood it which is why I wanted to clarify.
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  #44  
Old 06.12.2020, 18:00
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Re: Solar Panels Advice

Well, I’m not going to call him a liar but that’s how I read it. And depending on a lot of other stuff, this is something that is likely to increase the value of the home.
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  #45  
Old 06.12.2020, 19:23
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Re: Solar Panels Advice

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10% return, sure shit investment
It's not a 10% return as your initial capital is gone.

16 years to double your money - over that time frame c. 4.5%.

Of course, if their life expectancy is only 16 years then they need replacing then the return would be 0% after 16 years.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 06.12.2020 at 19:33.
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  #46  
Old 06.12.2020, 19:29
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Re: Solar Panels Advice

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I installed 48 panels last year, 13.8KwH capacity on excellent exposure, cost Chf 28k, subsidy Chf 7.25k, so, Chf 21k cost.



Previous electricity bill Chf 2.2k/annuel, now i get Chf 400.-- per year as rebate !


Fully well worthwhile, ask Group E for quote.
Can you point me in the direction of which Group E this might be? Oh and did you see my question about hail?
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  #47  
Old 06.12.2020, 20:12
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Re: Solar Panels Advice

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Totally and utterly, i do not pay Chf 2.2k electricity bill and I get Chf 400 back, so Chf 2.6/ year i "save"....payback in 8-9 years not counting the tree hugger "feel good" factor
Thanks. That makes perfect sense. It was the word „rebate“ that threw me.
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  #48  
Old 06.12.2020, 20:37
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Re: Solar Panels Advice

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It's not a 10% return as your initial capital is gone.

16 years to double your money - over that time frame c. 4.5%.

Of course, if their life expectancy is only 16 years then they need replacing then the return would be 0% after 16 years.
Life expectancy is higher than this. The return is 2.6k / year for as long as they are there. The moment you install them the value of your house has gone up about 50k to a prospective seller.
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  #49  
Old 06.12.2020, 20:44
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Re: Solar Panels Advice

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I really got other things to think about.....they are other things in life to worry about all the time apart from "investments"...like hugging a tree
Got your PM, thanks.
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  #50  
Old 06.12.2020, 22:51
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Re: Solar Panels Advice

Prices of electricity are likely not going to be that low in the future, given that Switzerland and Germany want to phase out nuclear power and reach CO2 targets.

In Germany, there's already talk about taxing the energy that people with solar panels and batteries (which are usually LFP batteries that have very, very long lives) use themselves.

If I had a house, I'd buy panels and batteries as soon as I could afford them.
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  #51  
Old 06.12.2020, 23:11
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Re: Solar Panels Advice

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Prices of electricity are likely not going to be that low in the future, given that Switzerland and Germany want to phase out nuclear power and reach CO2 targets.

In Germany, there's already talk about taxing the energy that people with solar panels and batteries (which are usually LFP batteries that have very, very long lives) use themselves.

If I had a house, I'd buy panels and batteries as soon as I could afford them.
Seems like a rather odd idea if you want to encourage uptake of renewables.
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  #52  
Old 07.12.2020, 00:19
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Re: Solar Panels Advice

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Seems like a rather odd idea if you want to encourage uptake of renewables.

Different government departments.

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  #53  
Old 07.12.2020, 00:42
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Re: Solar Panels Advice

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Prices of electricity are likely not going to be that low in the future, given that Switzerland and Germany want to phase out nuclear power and reach CO2 targets.

In Germany, there's already talk about taxing the energy that people with solar panels and batteries (which are usually LFP batteries that have very, very long lives) use themselves.

If I had a house, I'd buy panels and batteries as soon as I could afford them.
Strange idea. I do understand if taxes must be paid on the income one makes with the excess electricity.

If I had a house, I'd do the same as you.

And I agree, it is not only about profit. Compared to tree hugging - which might be free but I'd bet the trees are sick and tired of that by now - it actually changes something.
I have always proclaimed that there should be solar panels on absolutely every roof in the country. So much wasted space. The electric companies could rent the roofs for example as many people are not able to make the investment.
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  #54  
Old 07.12.2020, 09:41
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Re: Solar Panels Advice

Going back to how a private company can compete with the energy provider - we just had a full installation done by Solstis here in Geneva. They took care of the entire process, including authorisations, contract with the provider (SIG here in GE) and claiming back the rebate from the canton. At least here in GE, the SIG don't actually do the work themselves, it is outsourced to a local company anyway.

We have 15 panels at a total cost of CHF15k (couldn't fit any more unfortunately), but will get about CHF5k back (still waiting for that). I'll wait for a full year's cycle to see the overall impact on the bills.
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  #55  
Old 13.12.2020, 18:02
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Re: Solar Panels Advice

In 2019 we did a GEAK energy efficiency scheme on our old farm house. We went from energy rating F to B, and a huge part of that was putting up solar panels. We were building a new roof anyway, and could roll the cost of the solar array into the overall project, which was financed by the bank at normal mortgage rates. So about 1% for the moment.

Our setup is as big as a private person can get (we were told). It's 132 modules estimated to give 36,000 kWh a year. (So far this year it has actually done 41,000.) The panels have a 25-year guarantee and after 25 years should still be producing 80+% of their starting output. They can resist hail up to 30mm, which is supposed to be a 1 in 50-year event.

The price was 50,700 CHF, but owing to the solar subsidy we 'only' paid 34,000. Like GenevaSculler's experience, the company we dealt with did all the paperwork involved, including getting the subsidy back. (i.e. it will go to them, sometime in the next couple of years. We never have to think about it again.)

We're nearly at the end of 2020 and by my calculations this year the system has produced 2,500 francs in feed-in cash + savings. We're also able to use less oil heating because usually we can roll an electric oil radiator into a room for a bit and it's soon warm enough. I don't see a way to factor that into the equation though. So let's say a 13-year payback. Not amazing, not terrible.

(Another difficulty in calculating the ROI is that electricity prices are all over the place where I live. In 2018 peak juice was 12c, this year it's 14c, and next year both peak and off-peak will be... 7c. Half the price! What!)

I'd do it all again, but we were pretty fortunate in terms of lots of things combining that made solar make sense. If we didn't have the new roof going up, if we didn't have the easy financing, if we weren't getting a nice subsidy etc etc. But check this out - there's a greater than 50% chance that I will NEVER PAY AN ELECTRICITY BILL AGAIN IN MY WHOLE LIFE.

Last thing - don't underestimate the psychological impact of generating your own electricity. It is AWESOME.
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  #56  
Old 10.01.2021, 16:46
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Re: Solar Panels Advice

Quick update because it was bugging me that I said the 2021 price had dropped from 14c to 7c. That was, of course, me being a stupid idiot with pre-remedial reading skills in German.

The 7c I referenced was the variable cost or whatever it's called, which is on top of a fixed cost of 8c. So electricity will actually cost 15c per kWh - i.e. the price has, indeed, gone up. And now there's no off-peak price which is a stealth tax I approve of because I don't have to pay it and people I despise do.

With the new higher prices and higher feed-in tariff the ROI on solar shifts in my favour a little over 10%. (We made/saved 2,426 CHF in 2020 which would have been 2,776 CHF with the new rates.)
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  #57  
Old 26.02.2021, 08:53
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Re: Solar Panels Advice

Just a short update...we are making some progress in that we have 3 quotes, one from the local energy provider, and the other 2 from private firms.

The local energy provider's option still requires a significant annual payment for the next 20 years. They do all the installation and maintenance and look after the permits. There are no upfront payments. It is like a lease, so as we understand the annual payment cannot be deducted from taxes.

The private firms quotes were quite similar, although one quote was far more detailed than the other. They use different suppliers for the panels and batteries. Both factored in the incentives and rebates and both look after all the permits. The final cost to us can be deducted from our taxes.

The electric cables were installed at the time the house was built, and run from the attic to the electricity panel, though each company said they would need to do an onsite check. We have a second electricity meter (not in use) which might be useful.

It is still unclear just how much energy we will produce using solar panels as all 3 quotes estimated a different amount. There were variances in how much of the roof's surface would be covered with panels which we also need to understand. So we have gone back with questions.
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Old 26.02.2021, 09:21
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Re: Solar Panels Advice

We had 24 x 400 Watt panels = 9.6kWhpeak installed last October. Whilst the panels and installation are top notch, I cannot recommend the company though as they are totally overloaded and they were 9months behind their installation promise.

It‘s early days yet. Yesterday we had our best day so far producing 39.39kWh. There were a number of days after heavy snow with zero. Since January 1, we have produced 649.98kWh.

We use approx 15kWh per day (dividing the previous annual total by 365), so winters will never be profitable, from now on in good weather...

I have an app which can monitor output live and a daily report by email. The salesman claimed a 15 year payback time. I think it will be more like 25 years.

Our electric co. EKZ installed a new single meter for everything, including heat pump. They tally the input every quarter. Also their stats for our usage goes back 12 years all accessed by logging in to our account on their website.

We paid outright for the system and didn‘t do it to save money, but rather help the planet!
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Old 26.02.2021, 10:03
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Re: Solar Panels Advice

Sorry ran out of time to read the whole thread, but wanted to say.

Solar panels save you power during daylight/preferably sunny days. And if you don't use that energy well I don't think selling it back to the grid makes a lot of financial sense. That said, if you are replacing your roof and your house is in a good position, that is your not behind a mountain in a valley maybe worth looking into, although more from a moral, not financial point of view.

But well to be honest I think you'd be better off putting your money into a Tesla when you come to replace your car. It will save the environment and you money ultimately.
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Old 26.02.2021, 10:44
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Re: Solar Panels Advice

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Sorry ran out of time to read the whole thread, but wanted to say.

Solar panels save you power during daylight/preferably sunny days. And if you don't use that energy well I don't think selling it back to the grid makes a lot of financial sense. That said, if you are replacing your roof and your house is in a good position, that is your not behind a mountain in a valley maybe worth looking into, although more from a moral, not financial point of view.

But well to be honest I think you'd be better off putting your money into a Tesla when you come to replace your car. It will save the environment and you money ultimately.
Oh, and I charge my Tesla from our solar panels. Albeit rather slowly. The Model 3 can be set to take lower charge levels. At full whack the Tesla will take 11kWh. So I have set it take 4kWh and when the sun is shinning I check what the roof is generating and switch on charging from the app.

I looked at a battery system with the panels and the cost/benefit is simply not worth it, unless power cuts are common. Also Tesla‘s Powerwall is only single phase and our Wall Connector is 3 phase.

It‘s a great pity that Teslas don‘t have vehicle to grid capability, then the car could be used as a battery...
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