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Old 04.06.2008, 18:45
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Power went off in kitchen

I tried to switch on the lights in kitchen today and there was a brief spark. And with the spark, the power went off. Now, power is gone only in kitchen (i.e. the refridgerator is also off now).

How do I check the whether electric fuse has caused power to go off? There seem to be four bulb shaped white colored circular objects when I enter the house. I suspect these are the fuse entities of Switzerland. However, I do not know for sure.

Can someone help?
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Old 04.06.2008, 19:15
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Re: Power went off in kitchen

you have a panel somewhere with switches behind? Typically, it just triggers a circuit breaker which you flick back and voila!
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Old 04.06.2008, 19:20
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Re: Power went off in kitchen

Are those bulb shaped thingies made from porcelain?

Those could be old-school fuses.

Some pictures in this German Wikipedia article:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektrische_Sicherung
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Old 04.06.2008, 19:51
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Re: Power went off in kitchen

Yep, definately sounds like some old fuses
Always make sure you have some spare ones. A packet of about 10 new fuses will cost you like 3 francs at Migros, alternatively ask your neighbour or Hauswart for a new one to keep the refrigerater going...
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Old 04.06.2008, 20:00
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Re: Power went off in kitchen

Sounds very much like old school fuses to me, a friend used to have real problems in their apartment as the fuses would blow when he used multiple appliances at the same time.
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Old 04.06.2008, 21:07
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Re: Power went off in kitchen

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I tried to switch on the lights in kitchen today and there was a brief spark. And with the spark, the power went off. Now, power is gone only in kitchen (i.e. the refridgerator is also off now).

How do I check the whether electric fuse has caused power to go off? There seem to be four bulb shaped white colored circular objects when I enter the house. I suspect these are the fuse entities of Switzerland. However, I do not know for sure.

Can someone help?
It might be fuses but frankly it is hard to imagine that they would put electrical appliances on fuses, usually there are circuit breakers (CB's) and earth leakage in the DB box (distribution box). I would check first in the DB if anything have tripped and try to toggle it back to ON position. If there is still CB tripping that means that there is somwhere a short (short circuit). I would call electrician if you do not have experience with fault finding. Hope it will help
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Old 04.06.2008, 21:18
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Re: Power went off in kitchen

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It might be fuses but frankly it is hard to imagine that they would put electrical appliances on fuses, usually there are circuit breakers (CB's) and earth leakage in the DB box (distribution box). I would check first in the DB if anything have tripped and try to toggle it back to ON position. If there is still CB tripping that means that there is somwhere a short (short circuit). I would call electrician if you do not have experience with fault finding. Hope it will help
Not willing to be excessively anal, but a a fuse is technically a circuit breaker.

Further to this, yes, there are electrical appliances on fusibles, especially in older apartment buildings...
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Old 04.06.2008, 21:30
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Re: Power went off in kitchen

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It might be fuses but frankly it is hard to imagine that they would put electrical appliances on fuses, usually there are circuit breakers..
I would call electrician if you do not have experience with fault finding. Hope it will help
Long, long ago, before you were born, all the houses I lived in (those which had electricity), had fuses. In England you fiddled with fuse-wire (or a hair-grip if you were being very naughty!!!) to 'mend' them. In Switzerland you bought new ones from the local shop and usually kept a supply in a cupboard where it was too dark to find them when the lights were off. Until a few years back we had them here too and this house is only about thirty years old....
You young fellows have no idea what fun you missed by being born too late.
Thanks for the advice about the electrician though.
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Old 04.06.2008, 22:12
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Re: Power went off in kitchen

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Not willing to be excessively anal, but a a fuse is technically a circuit breaker.

Further to this, yes, there are electrical appliances on fusibles, especially in older apartment buildings...
First question:

I hate to explain these differences again, especially when I do to my students... Maybe because I have PhD in Electrical Engineering and use the slang a lot but try to trust me at least based on Wikipedia explanation:

In electronics and electrical engineering a fuse (short for fusible link), is a type of overcurrent protection device. Its essential component is a metal wire or strip that melts when too much current flows, which breaks the circuit in which it is connected, thus protecting the circuit's other components from damage due to excessive current.

A circuit breaker is an automatically-operated electrical switch designed to protect an electrical circuit from damage caused by overload or short circuit. Unlike a fuse, which operates once and then has to be replaced, a circuit breaker can be reset (either manually or automatically) to resume normal operation. Circuit breakers are made in varying sizes, from small devices that protect an individual household appliance up to large switchgear designed to protect high voltage circuits feeding an entire city.

Second question:

I doubt it!!!
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Old 04.06.2008, 22:20
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Re: Power went off in kitchen

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First question:

I hate to explain these differences again, especially when I do to my students... Maybe because I have PhD in Electrical Engineering and use the slang a lot but try to trust me at least based on Wikipedia explanation:

In electronics and electrical engineering a fuse (short for fusible link), is a type of overcurrent protection device. Its essential component is a metal wire or strip that melts when too much current flows, which breaks the circuit in which it is connected, thus protecting the circuit's other components from damage due to excessive current.

A circuit breaker is an automatically-operated electrical switch designed to protect an electrical circuit from damage caused by overload or short circuit. Unlike a fuse, which operates once and then has to be replaced, a circuit breaker can be reset (either manually or automatically) to resume normal operation. Circuit breakers are made in varying sizes, from small devices that protect an individual household appliance up to large switchgear designed to protect high voltage circuits feeding an entire city.

Second question:

I doubt it!!!
Does you house have an indoor and outdoor pool, a little over 7,000 square meter gardens, eight seat theatre, game room and a bunch of other niceties??
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Old 04.06.2008, 22:21
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Re: Power went off in kitchen

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Long, long ago, before you were born, all the houses I lived in (those which had electricity), had fuses. In England you fiddled with fuse-wire (or a hair-grip if you were being very naughty!!!) to 'mend' them. In Switzerland you bought new ones from the local shop and usually kept a supply in a cupboard where it was too dark to find them when the lights were off. Until a few years back we had them here too and this house is only about thirty years old....
You young fellows have no idea what fun you missed by being born too late.
Thanks for the advice about the electrician though.
Guess i must have missed fun everytime they used to burn

BTW: At my work place this is quite common to burn the fuse, especially when we work on new supe dooper prototypes at ABB, but at home it only happens when too many appliances are on at the same time
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Old 04.06.2008, 22:23
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Re: Power went off in kitchen

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Does you house have an indoor and outdoor pool, a little over 7,000 square meter gardens, eight seat theatre, game room and a bunch of other niceties??
Your description almost matches the one that I used to live in South Africa (no joke houses there are like that....)
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Old 04.06.2008, 22:48
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Re: Power went off in kitchen

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Long, long ago, before you were born, all the houses I lived in (those which had electricity), had fuses. In England you fiddled with fuse-wire (or a hair-grip if you were being very naughty!!!) to 'mend' them. In Switzerland you bought new ones from the local shop and usually kept a supply in a cupboard where it was too dark to find them when the lights were off. Until a few years back we had them here too and this house is only about thirty years old....
You young fellows have no idea what fun you missed by being born too late.
Thanks for the advice about the electrician though.

=CIRCUIT BREAKERS=Who invented them? When? Why? The history of circuit breakers is the history of electricity. Circuit breakers appeared at about the same time as electrical power for industrial use. That would be at the end of the 1800s and beginning of the 20th Century.

Until very recently, electrical circuit breakers were very basic devices. If the current through the circuit breaker exceeded a certain level (rating), the circuit breaker would eventually "trip" open. It may surprise you to learn that circuit breakers do not trip immediately when the current exceeds their overload rating. In some cases the time delay can be several minutes, depending on how much the current exceeds the circuit breaker rating. Circuit breakers are manufactured with an intentional time delay. Most breakers also have an "instantaneous" function. But the instantaneous function does not trip the breaker unless the current through the circuit breaker is extremely high, possibly 20 times the circuit breaker's overload rating. The actual operation of some molded case circuit breakers was unpredictable. The trip delay of most molded case circuit breakers had a very wide range. As much as 50 to 300 seconds. Air circuit breakers had a variety of methods to provide protective trip rating and time delay. Some circuit breakers had oil dashpots. Some used springs and gears. Many modern molded case circuit breakers, insulated case circuit breakers, power circuit breakers, and low voltage air circuit breakers use electronic controls to monitor the current and trip the circuit breaker. These circuit breakers are very accurate and provide a major improvement in the quality of protection provide by a circuit breaker.


Circuit Breaker History:
1902 McBride Manufacturing Company starts manufacturing fuse links.
1904 Cutter Manufacturing Co., located in Philadelphia, produces circuit breakers. The firm introduced a product that became an industry success. The new protective device, first promoted as the Inverse Time Element breaker, came to be known as the I-T-E breaker.
1921 Merlin Gerin manufactures first high voltage oil circuit breakers.
1925 NEC- Circuit breakers required to be enclosed and externally operable.
1928 Cutter name changed to I-T-E Corp. (From EC&M Magazine)
1932 Westinghouse begins marketing their modern molded case air circuit breaker.
1935 Square D manufactures first circuit breakers for use in homes.
1951 Square D introduces plug-in circuit breakers

P.S. Inventors must have hidden them away from public use for long time I guess?
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Old 04.06.2008, 22:52
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Re: Power went off in kitchen

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First question:

I hate to explain these differences again, especially when I do to my students... Maybe because I have PhD in Electrical Engineering and use the slang a lot but try to trust me at least based on Wikipedia explanation:

In electronics and electrical engineering a fuse (short for fusible link), is a type of overcurrent protection device. Its essential component is a metal wire or strip that melts when too much current flows, which breaks the circuit in which it is connected, thus protecting the circuit's other components from damage due to excessive current.

A circuit breaker is an automatically-operated electrical switch designed to protect an electrical circuit from damage caused by overload or short circuit. Unlike a fuse, which operates once and then has to be replaced, a circuit breaker can be reset (either manually or automatically) to resume normal operation. Circuit breakers are made in varying sizes, from small devices that protect an individual household appliance up to large switchgear designed to protect high voltage circuits feeding an entire city.
Ok. Let me rephrase. Are they both overcurrent protection devices serving exactly the same purpose when installed in living quarters - or not?

Quote:
Second question:

I doubt it!!!
Second answer - maybe you should forget the PhD and look around some more? Why do you think fusibles are sold in Migros and Coop? For decoration purposes perhaps?

When you're done with that, I'd be delighted to discuss say the Bernouilli principle and Foucault currents with you, unless you're going to bring up Wikipedia to support whatever principial understanding your PhD should have provided you with in the first place.
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Old 04.06.2008, 23:12
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Re: Power went off in kitchen

Well my in apartment building the rooms definitely require these little 500 V Fuse Links (Fusibles/Proppsaekringar/Zekerginen/Olvadobetet...) for all the rooms. I first discovered this after buying a toaster and a kettle (essential items if you are British - why don't people use these items here?). When I first simultaneously toasted some bread and boiled some water for tea one morning, they both switched off halfway through their tasks. And of course warm tea is out of the question. So I grilled my toast (somehow the oven still worked) and buttered it with the butter from the fridge. When I came back home in the evening, I discovered that the one of the lights didn't work, and the food in the fridge was warm, and the little freezer was defrosted. That's when I worked out I needed these fuse links. I just took the old ones to the shop and got a pack of replacements. The only time I need them is when a British guest is visiting and forgets my warning of never to make tea and toast at the same time.
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Old 04.06.2008, 23:15
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Re: Power went off in kitchen

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Ok. Let me rephrase. Are they both overcurrent protection devices serving exactly the same purpose when installed in living quarters - or not?

Second answer - maybe you should forget the PhD and look around some more? Why do you think fusibles are sold in Migros and Coop? For decoration purposes perhaps?

When you're done with that, I'd be delighted to discuss say the Bernouilli principle and Foucault currents with you, unless you're going to bring up Wikipedia to support whatever principial understanding your PhD should have provided you with in the first place.
Are you a lawyer, political scientist...? Seriously? I doubt a scientist though...

BTW: I quote Wikipedia just to get independent (of me in this case) definition!

They both overcurrent devices but principle of operation is completely different. Thus it is wrong to confuse definition circuit breaker and fuse from technical point of view!

Practically, I remember those fuses were used long ago white small thingies which... were very effective but inefficient for household applications in a long run since one had to exchange them every time they burnt... due to overload.

CB's are modern devices finding application with differential switches or earth leakages when they can be reset and they provide time delays relative to applications.

If they are still used in some houses it must be due to the fact that these buildings are very old and they didn't focus on modernizing them... I really doubt there are many houses like that!

Don't get me wrong fuses are still use in stringent industrial appplications where time delay before tripping is not acceptable i.e. fast fuses or in applications were certain delay marigin is desired so called slow blows...

What Bernouilli principle and Foucault currents have to do with overcurrent protection???
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Old 04.06.2008, 23:36
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Re: Power went off in kitchen

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Well my in apartment building the rooms definitely require these little 500 V Fuse Links (Fusibles/Proppsaekringar/Zekerginen/Olvadobetet...) for all the rooms. I first discovered this after buying a toaster and a kettle (essential items if you are British - why don't people use these items here?). When I first simultaneously toasted some bread and boiled some water for tea one morning, they both switched off halfway through their tasks. And of course warm tea is out of the question. So I grilled my toast (somehow the oven still worked) and buttered it with the butter from the fridge. When I came back home in the evening, I discovered that the one of the lights didn't work, and the food in the fridge was warm, and the little freezer was defrosted. That's when I worked out I needed these fuse links. I just took the old ones to the shop and got a pack of replacements. The only time I need them is when a British guest is visiting and forgets my warning of never to make tea and toast at the same time.
Well, I get convinced now that you will need those fuses if there are only fuse holders in your apartment instead of CB's...

Just make sure that the current rating of newly purchased fuses matches the current on the replaced fuses. Frankly I am very surprised that houses still use the fuses. For instance, in my apartment dated from 1986 there is a brand new DB box that has got set of new CB's allocated to each phase of the three phase feed. Everytime something trips due to the overcurrent I just reset the relevant CB and get back to normal...

I appologise if you got confused with my previous posts on Cb's...
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Old 05.06.2008, 02:22
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Re: Power went off in kitchen

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Are those bulb shaped thingies made from porcelain?

Those could be old-school fuses.

Some pictures in this German Wikipedia article:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektrische_Sicherung
Voila, they are very much like the ones mentioned in the wiki page (image NEOZED-Sicherungseinsätze). And I thought I was living in a modern house .

Its the one with red tip (10 A 500V) at http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...20060106124002 . And it does not seem to carry its red tip anymore. Tip is broken.

I guess I need to rush to Migros first thing in the morning then..
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Old 05.06.2008, 07:29
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Re: Power went off in kitchen

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If they are still used in some houses it must be due to the fact that these buildings are very old and they didn't focus on modernizing them... I really doubt there are many houses like that!
Actually I think there are more houses like this than you think. We own an apartment building that uses this old type of electrical system. We were told that the Swiss authorities are trying to phase this type of electrical system out. We are in the process of rewiring the entire building. (Not an inexpensive process!)

With our building the electricity is carried through outside lines that connect on the roof. Once the rewiring is done, all connections will be through wires in the ground. I'm happy to not see all the wiring strung from house to house. We also have neighbors with the same type of old wiring.

At least now our tenants will be able to have microwaves without blowing the little porcelain fuses.
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Old 05.06.2008, 07:48
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Re: Power went off in kitchen

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Voila, they are very much like the ones mentioned in the wiki page (image NEOZED-Sicherungseinsätze). And I thought I was living in a modern house .

Its the one with red tip (10 A 500V) at http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...20060106124002 . And it does not seem to carry its red tip anymore. Tip is broken.

I guess I need to rush to Migros first thing in the morning then..
That's it. And you managed it without a PhD...
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