Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Other/general  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 31.05.2017, 16:08
JagWaugh's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eglisau
Posts: 7,273
Groaned at 47 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 14,131 Times in 5,506 Posts
JagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language question

Quote:
View Post
People living in the German speaking part of Switzerland are very used to the fact that X may be named Y but actually pronounced Z or W. PS: This is all good until you go to the "German" speaking part of Canton Valais.
LOL.

For the first few years I was here I thought that the reason I had trouble understanding the Walliser was that they weren't speaking their mother tongue! One day at work I had a meeting with a Walliser and I said "I wish my French was good enough that we could work in your mother tongue." The guy laughed so hard I thought I was going to have to call an ambulance, then once he caught his breath he explained that the way he spoke German was his mother tongue. For years afterwards whenever we were both in a meeting he would say "My French is crap, but if you wanna try it... we could speak French."
__________________
If everyone you know agrees with you consistently, they are either not listening, or not capable of critical thought.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 31.05.2017, 16:20
Sbrinz's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Murten - Morat
Posts: 11,885
Groaned at 563 Times in 354 Posts
Thanked 11,548 Times in 5,941 Posts
Sbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language question

Quote:
View Post
For example if i said:
Mir ist kalt/Ich been kalt(i am cold) they will understand me ?
Probably... but be very careful.

Do NOT say to anyone "ich bin heiss", or worse, "ich bin warm" these phrases have sexual implications!

Also wrong, "ich bin kalt" - it means you are frigid, but nobody will be offended.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think in the beginning you need a certain amount of luck, many people will close their minds if they don't like your accent.

I had worked in a country area south of Frankfurt for 18 months, and knew some German, but problems were waiting for me in the Munich bakery:

Conversation in German:

me: Do you have a doughnut please? ............. (My mistake, I had used the Frankfurt word, not the Munich word for a doughnut, Kreppel vs Krapfen)
lady: Huh ?
me: a doughnut, it is round like a bread roll, it is fried in oil, covered in sugar, and has jam in the middle.
lady: yes we have bread rolls...
.
.

Last edited by Sbrinz; 31.05.2017 at 16:30.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 31.05.2017, 16:23
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 4,163
Groaned at 168 Times in 143 Posts
Thanked 6,572 Times in 2,977 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language question

Quote:
View Post
I have been asked in English if I speak French, this was in Bahnhofstrasse Zurich
Most amusing one I've seen is two Italians as work trying to speak German to each other. Took them about 10 minutes to realise they could use Italian!
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post:
  #24  
Old 31.05.2017, 16:33
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 29,160
Groaned at 2,042 Times in 1,527 Posts
Thanked 34,717 Times in 16,493 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language question

Quote:
View Post
me: Do you have a doughnut please? ............. (My mistake, I had used the Frankfurt word, not the Munich word for a doughnut, Kreppel vs Krapfen)
lady: Huh ?
me: a doughnut, it is round like a bread roll, it is fried in oil, covered in sugar, and has jam in the middle.
lady: yes we have bread rolls...
The correct word is Berliner.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 31.05.2017, 16:34
Sbrinz's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Murten - Morat
Posts: 11,885
Groaned at 563 Times in 354 Posts
Thanked 11,548 Times in 5,941 Posts
Sbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language question

Hee hee, yes I had the same experience in Lausanne, with French.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 31.05.2017, 16:34
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,806
Groaned at 227 Times in 191 Posts
Thanked 22,512 Times in 9,559 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language question

Quote:
View Post
I found that Swiss German pronunciation is so close to Standard German that I quickly learned to translate on the fly (Uuswiis=Ausweis, Ufa=Auf etc).

I took formal courses for Standard German, Swiss German just sort of happened in the 20h of the day that I was outside of the class (for the first 3 months).

They're different, but so closely related that (to a native English speaker who isn't confused by the differences between UK and US English) you'll probably hear them more like two dialects, rather than two separate languages.

You'll get them mixed up every now and then, but after about a year or so that will be rare.

My advice would be learn Standard German first. If you (or the Swiss who you interact with) feel the need for a Swiss German course after a year or two, then take one.
I learnt standard German before coming to Switzerland and learnt Swiss German here.

The other day, my OH, who is German, made fun of me for using the word absitzen in a German conversation in Germany. This shows to what extent Switzzerland has poluuted my German.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 31.05.2017, 16:36
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,806
Groaned at 227 Times in 191 Posts
Thanked 22,512 Times in 9,559 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language question

Quote:
View Post
The correct word is Berliner.

Tom
President Kennedy will always be remembered for that one.

What a pity that Obama didn't build on that fame and go to Budapest and hold a speech saying "Barack vagyok" (I am a peach)
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #28  
Old 31.05.2017, 16:37
Sbrinz's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Murten - Morat
Posts: 11,885
Groaned at 563 Times in 354 Posts
Thanked 11,548 Times in 5,941 Posts
Sbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language question

Quote:
View Post
The correct word is Berliner.

Tom
In Bavaria, the correct word is Krapfen.

Alan.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 31.05.2017, 16:43
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 19,099
Groaned at 392 Times in 297 Posts
Thanked 18,932 Times in 10,198 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language question

Quote:
View Post
Most amusing one I've seen is two Italians as work trying to speak German to each other. Took them about 10 minutes to realise they could use Italian!
A good friend spent 5 minutes speaking to a car rental company in French, eventually they realised they were both English, happens all the time.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #30  
Old 01.06.2017, 09:53
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: I dont live in Switzerland yet
Posts: 27
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
TomasTomas has no particular reputation at present
Re: Language question

Thanks for all reply
If we summarize all the population of Switzerland by language the picture will be like this :
60 % speak german
30 % speak french
10 % speak italian
And also
40-50 % speak English(mainly in the urban areas)
Is this correct ?
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 01.06.2017, 15:07
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 1,380
Groaned at 282 Times in 153 Posts
Thanked 1,115 Times in 636 Posts
Capo is considered unworthyCapo is considered unworthyCapo is considered unworthyCapo is considered unworthy
Re: Language question

Quote:
View Post
Thanks for all reply
If we summarize all the population of Switzerland by language the picture will be like this :
60 % speak german
30 % speak french
10 % speak italian
And also
40-50 % speak English(mainly in the urban areas)
Is this correct ?
Very roughly yes, but in my experience there are lot of people in Ticino who also speaks German but not so much in the Romandie. So in fact if you take into account the those who speak German fluently also as a second language, than it is more skewed towards German. I might be wrong but at least it is my perception.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Capo for this useful post:
  #32  
Old 01.06.2017, 16:55
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 219
Groaned at 81 Times in 40 Posts
Thanked 102 Times in 70 Posts
koblenz is considered unworthykoblenz is considered unworthykoblenz is considered unworthykoblenz is considered unworthy
Re: Language question

And aren't there more speakers of Italian actually in all of the other cantons put together than there are in TI and GR?
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 01.06.2017, 21:31
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 1,346
Groaned at 24 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 996 Times in 591 Posts
Meerkat33 is considered knowledgeableMeerkat33 is considered knowledgeableMeerkat33 is considered knowledgeable
Re: Language question

Quote:
View Post
And aren't there more speakers of Italian actually in all of the other cantons put together than there are in TI and GR?
There's a spectrum of italian speakers outside of TI/GR, there are new immigrants who speak perfect italian, but there are a lot who speak some italian learnt from their parents who maybe speak only third elementary level sourthern italian from 40 years ago. I am an italian speaker and I think many of them especially the younger generations really struggle, and they intercalate with swiss german words. I think only maybe 20% speak italian like a true bilingual, and in general they prefer swiss german.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Meerkat33 for this useful post:
  #34  
Old 02.06.2017, 10:44
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: I dont live in Switzerland yet
Posts: 27
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
TomasTomas has no particular reputation at present
Re: Language question

Thanks
So learning German is the key
I am now studying it hard and yesterday i make an online A1 test
I have a 60 % success so for a one month and a half is not so bad
Would you recommend me some sites about learning German.
Now i am using this:
https://www.duolingo.com/
and this
https://app.supermemo.com/#/learn/317

Is this enough and would you recommend me other sites ?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank TomasTomas for this useful post:
  #35  
Old 02.06.2017, 11:10
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 29,160
Groaned at 2,042 Times in 1,527 Posts
Thanked 34,717 Times in 16,493 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language question

Quote:
View Post
And aren't there more speakers of Italian actually in all of the other cantons put together than there are in TI and GR?
No. 350k in TI/GR, 545k nationwide.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 02.06.2017, 11:10
JagWaugh's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eglisau
Posts: 7,273
Groaned at 47 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 14,131 Times in 5,506 Posts
JagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language question

Quote:
View Post
Thanks
So learning German is the key
I am now studying it hard and yesterday i make an online A1 test
I have a 60 % success so for a one month and a half is not so bad
Would you recommend me some sites about learning German.
Now i am using this:
https://www.duolingo.com/
and this
https://app.supermemo.com/#/learn/317

Is this enough and would you recommend me other sites ?
Learning German is indeed the key.

Online resources and tests have some value, but the litmus test is walking up to a random stranger and asking a random question, and being able to figure out what their answer is.

And the way to interpret the results of that test is:

The more trepidation and preparation you experience before approaching and asking a question, the more you need to work on yourself, and your German.

The longer it takes for the random stranger to respond (and the more consternation their facial expression reveals), the more you need to work on your German (but you're past the "I can't open my mouth until my German is perfect" personal inhibition.)

The longer it takes you to interpret the answer the more you need to work on your German (or you've reached the point where you're asking philosophical questions which by their nature require interpretation).

Just get out there and do it. It is very rare for people who speak funny to be sold off into the slave trade. The more you speak funny, the less funny you will speak.

You will probably go through various stages, some of mine were:
  1. Prepare every sentence, translating from English to German, initially on paper, later in your head.
  2. Carry a dictionary to lookup specific words.
  3. Stop carrying your dictionary.
  4. Notice that people seem to misunderstand you only very rarely.
  5. You only rarely need to explain a joke you made in German.
  6. You visit Italy or France, and instinctively try to speak German, rather than your mother tongue or the local language.
  7. You start slipping into German when you're tired and talking to people who don't speak German.
  8. Native German speakers get your jokes in German all of the time.
  9. You go to an English speaking country and you have to translate (in your head) from German to English for the first couple of days you're there.

EDIT: That list should include: "You join EF because you realise that your English has started to sound like the dialogue from a '50s cowboy movie"
__________________
If everyone you know agrees with you consistently, they are either not listening, or not capable of critical thought.

Last edited by JagWaugh; 02.06.2017 at 11:20.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank JagWaugh for this useful post:
  #37  
Old 02.06.2017, 11:16
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 219
Groaned at 81 Times in 40 Posts
Thanked 102 Times in 70 Posts
koblenz is considered unworthykoblenz is considered unworthykoblenz is considered unworthykoblenz is considered unworthy
Re: Language question

Quote:
View Post
No.

Tom
Oh, I was told that there were.

I assume it is because most Italian speaking immigrants nowadays identify themselves (and put themselves down on the census principally as speakers of German.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 02.06.2017, 11:35
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: I dont live in Switzerland yet
Posts: 27
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
TomasTomas has no particular reputation at present
Re: Language question

Quote:
View Post
Learning German is indeed the key.

Online resources and tests have some value, but the litmus test is walking up to a random stranger and asking a random question, and being able to figure out what their answer is.

And the way to interpret the results of that test is:

The more trepidation and preparation you experience before approaching and asking a question, the more you need to work on yourself, and your German.

The longer it takes for the random stranger to respond (and the more consternation their facial expression reveals), the more you need to work on your German (but you're past the "I can't open my mouth until my German is perfect" personal inhibition.)

The longer it takes you to interpret the answer the more you need to work on your German (or you've reached the point where you're asking philosophical questions which by their nature require interpretation).

Just get out there and do it. It is very rare for people who speak funny to be sold off into the slave trade. The more you speak funny, the less funny you will speak.

You will probably go through various stages, some of mine were:
  1. Prepare every sentence, translating from English to German, initially on paper, later in your head.
  2. Carry a dictionary to lookup specific words.
  3. Stop carrying your dictionary.
  4. Notice that people seem to misunderstand you only very rarely.
  5. You only rarely need to explain a joke you made in German.
  6. You visit Italy or France, and instinctively try to speak German, rather than your mother tongue or the local language.
  7. You start slipping into German when you're tired and talking to people who don't speak German.
  8. Native German speakers get your jokes in German all of the time.
  9. You go to an English speaking country and you have to translate (in your head) from German to English for the first couple of days you're there.

EDIT: That list should include: "You join EF because you realise that your English has started to sound like the dialogue from a '50s cowboy movie"
Yes,in the real life this test dont count so much.
If i speak frankly the German is no easy(i dont think that i make a huge discovery )
But what is your best effective strategy/tactics to learn the language ?
For me is to learn whole sentences with the most important/most used phrases
And some technical question.
For example
Wir werden den Flughafen erweitern (We will expand the airport ) why the places of Flughafen(airport) and erweitern(expand) are changed
If we translate it directly it will be "We will the airport expand"
Same with this:
Ich werde ihn einstellen(We will hire him)
The direct translation will be "We will him hire "
Same with this:
Sie wird das Zimmer sehen(She will see the room)
Direct translation will be "she will the room see"
Or
Ich werde dich in meinem Zimmer erwarten(I will expect you in my room)
Direct translation "I will you in my room expect"
From where it comes this changing of words ?
P.S
I am very sorry if my question look stupid.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 02.06.2017, 11:52
JagWaugh's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eglisau
Posts: 7,273
Groaned at 47 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 14,131 Times in 5,506 Posts
JagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond reputeJagWaugh has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language question

Quote:
View Post
Yes,in the real life this test dont count so much.
If i speak frankly the German is no easy(i dont think that i make a huge discovery )
But what is your best effective strategy/tactics to learn the language ?
For me is to learn whole sentences with the most important/most used phrases
And some technical question.
For example
Wir werden den Flughafen erweitern (We will expand the airport ) why the places of Flughafen(airport) and erweitern(expand) are changed
If we translate it directly it will be "We will the airport expand"
Same with this:
Ich werde ihn einstellen(We will hire him)
The direct translation will be "We will him hire "
Same with this:
Sie wird das Zimmer sehen(She will see the room)
Direct translation will be "she will the room see"
Or
Ich werde dich in meinem Zimmer erwarten(I will expect you in my room)
Direct translation "I will you in my room expect"
From where it comes this changing of words ?
P.S
I am very sorry if my question look stupid.
Part of the syntax of German is to shuffle the verb to the end of the sentence. Think of it as a sort of built in parity check: Listen until you've heard a verb, the sentence is now complete.

The rule isn't universal.

You're still in the "Translate" phase. In a certain sense you're not learning German yet, you're learning how to recognize the difference between German and English. (This isn't a criticism, we all went through it.)

Once you stop comparing everything to English you've started properly learning German. (What does a child compare language to when they are learning their mother tongue?)

German isn't any more difficult to learn than any other language, once you get past the "translate" phase. You can't force this, but the more you get out and use a language the better your progress will be.

Harrap's "German Grammar" is a good technical resource to help you decode German constructions, but you have to understand enough about grammar to make sense of it.
__________________
If everyone you know agrees with you consistently, they are either not listening, or not capable of critical thought.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank JagWaugh for this useful post:
  #40  
Old 02.06.2017, 12:45
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 8,050
Groaned at 349 Times in 283 Posts
Thanked 10,411 Times in 5,500 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Language question

Quote:
View Post
No. 350k in TI/GR, 545k nationwide.

Tom
The question is what should be called "Italian speaker", just native speakers or should it include those who use it often (at least once a week, though at what level is unknown)? In the latter case 15-17% of the population count. See "regelmässig verwendete Sprachen" on this official statistics.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
English language question Calvin Language corner 8 10.12.2013 18:15
Language level question TuxedoPants Language corner 5 24.05.2013 12:14
Migros Language - question about levels / courses gc2006 Language corner 10 18.07.2011 10:51
Language proficiency question TheSpouse Language corner 38 30.05.2009 16:03
General Language Question atencorps Language corner 9 08.03.2009 12:02


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 19:08.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0