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  #41  
Old 12.09.2017, 22:37
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Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

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Either that OR go through the state attorney directly (Ministères public See here which is responsible for your location http://www.vd.ch/autorites/ministere...rrondissement/), or handle it through a lawyer.

As Silvestre says try to get written statements. From the notary as well from the embassy.

PS: If you do yourself. Rather than say something illegal had happened, and it was your husband, better say something illegal might have happened and it looks like it could be your husband or someone impersonating as your husband. Which would be even more worry some.
well he submitted them!

My lawyer said it was no big deal, the judge was made aware in our case but has not seen the evidence, it was argued as to why I didn't just give consent vs the crime, which I found bizarre
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  #42  
Old 12.09.2017, 22:58
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Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

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No affidavit but the rest is true but I have his verbal confirmation he did not do it. So I should push the police further to accept the report?
The most surprising part of this story is that the notary isn't filing charges if his signature and stamp was forged....
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  #43  
Old 12.09.2017, 23:17
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Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

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The most surprising part of this story is that the notary isn't filing charges if his signature and stamp was forged....
well, that may be happening too
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  #44  
Old 12.09.2017, 23:22
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Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

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The most surprising part of this story is that the notary isn't filing charges if his signature and stamp was forged....
Without proof it is hear/say, so unless OP or the Dutch government hands him evidence he has nothing to file.
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  #45  
Old 12.09.2017, 23:47
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Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

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No affidavit but the rest is true but I have his verbal confirmation he did not do it. So I should push the police further to accept the report?
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Without proof it is hear/say, so unless OP or the Dutch government hands him evidence he has nothing to file.
I assumed the notary saw the document and confirmed it wasn't don't by him/her. But you are right maybe s/he hasn't seen the document.
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  #46  
Old 13.09.2017, 00:02
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Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

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I assumed the notary saw the document and confirmed it wasn't don't by him/her. But you are right maybe s/he hasn't seen the document.
Notary has confirmd he didn't stamp it, he did a totally different form which is where my ex got his seal/siggy from

I didn't sign anything so is it hearsay? The dutch embassy has 4 affidavits to say I never signed it
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  #47  
Old 13.09.2017, 00:07
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Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

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Notary has confirmd he didn't stamp it, he did a totally different form which is where my ex got his seal/siggy from

I didn't sign anything so is it hearsay? The dutch embassy has 4 affidavits to say I never signed it
I'm not saying it's heresay.

Edwin's question i guess is Did the notary see the forged documents?

If his/her stamp is being forged I would imagine that is quite serious. I can't see him/her not wanting to take legal action.
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  #48  
Old 13.09.2017, 01:45
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Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

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It was a signature and notary seal for a passport application
Unless the application was for a Swiss passport it is most likely not a matter for the Swiss jurisdiction unless the Embassy makes a complaint to the Swiss authorities.
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  #49  
Old 13.09.2017, 02:04
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Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

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well he submitted them!
It is just cover to your ass, bases and be on the safe side. You never know when a criminal accusation backfires and you are suddenly accused of libel and slander for some stupid unknown reason you had never imagined even in a clear open-and-shut case.
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  #50  
Old 13.09.2017, 02:10
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Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

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Unless the application was for a Swiss passport it is most likely not a matter for the Swiss jurisdiction unless the Embassy makes a complaint to the Swiss authorities.
Not again Swiss soil - Swiss jurisdiction.

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Do you see any border on the official map? No.
https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=en&to...8939.68&zoom=8

Do you see any exemptions in the Swiss Criminal Code? No.
https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi.../index.html#a3

Do you see any special treaty with the Netherlands regarding the definition of Switzerland? No.
https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi....13.html#0.132

Do you see any special treaty with the Netherlands regarding special rules for the embassy in Bern? No.
https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi....19.html#0.191

So why the he.. to you have the idea that not standard procedure which was established in the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations should apply a specified in Article 22 ?
http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instru...s/9_1_1961.pdf
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  #51  
Old 13.09.2017, 02:13
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Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

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I'm not saying it's heresay.

Edwin's question i guess is Did the notary see the forged documents?

If his/her stamp is being forged I would imagine that is quite serious. I can't see him/her not wanting to take legal action.
Well my question is very simple what can be proven at this point by the people who want to make a case out of it?
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  #52  
Old 13.09.2017, 02:42
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Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

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Well my question is very simple what can be proven at this point by the people who want to make a case out of it?
He probably scanned the seal and signature and printed it very high quality, it should be visible but I don't know if they do this kind of exam. Also, the documents are in the NL it seems which makes it even harder.
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  #53  
Old 13.09.2017, 03:26
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Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

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Not again Swiss soil - Swiss jurisdiction.
Except it is not Swiss soil! What happen on Embassy property is their business.
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  #54  
Old 13.09.2017, 03:42
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Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

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Except it is not Swiss soil! What happen on Embassy property is their business.
It is Swiss soil.

Go read the topic, and click some links...
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  #55  
Old 13.09.2017, 03:45
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Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

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He probably scanned the seal and signature and printed it very high quality, it should be visible but I don't know if they do this kind of exam. Also, the documents are in the NL it seems which makes it even harder.
Test on those stamps when the fake is a print is easy, go over them with a wet finger, a print will stay proper, a stamp won't.

If they can't get the documents, they have no case in my opinion.
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  #56  
Old 13.09.2017, 09:36
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Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

You could also try reporting it as attempted identity theft - in which case you are the victim and may have more rights to complain.

Just make sure you don't get your own passport/identity locked in the process.

And doesn't the notary have anything to say about this? If they don't strongly protect their own identity, it breaks the whole chain of trust.
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  #57  
Old 13.09.2017, 10:47
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Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

Going back to the original question, i.e. is forgery a civil or criminal matter:
It can be both:

Forging a document or signature will generally be a criminal matter (https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a251)
If such document/signature have been used to make someone enter into a contract (or if such forged signature is used to claim that a contract was entered into) it will also be a civil matter. Either the contract is void from the beginning or you can invoke fraud to challenge the contract (https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...index.html#a28).
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  #58  
Old 13.09.2017, 11:19
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Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

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Going back to the original question, i.e. is forgery a civil or criminal matter:
It can be both:

Forging a document or signature will generally be a criminal matter (https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a251)
If such document/signature have been used to make someone enter into a contract (or if such forged signature is used to claim that a contract was entered into) it will also be a civil matter. Either the contract is void from the beginning or you can invoke fraud to challenge the contract (https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...index.html#a28).
That's two separate points - as you and aSITUS stated, the act of forgery is a criminal offense.

What happens to the document after that is completely separate - you gave an example of a civil offense; if someone used it to incite someone to murder, it would be a criminal offense; if they hang it on their wall, their is no additional offense.
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  #59  
Old 13.09.2017, 13:05
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Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

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He probably scanned the seal and signature and printed it very high quality, it should be visible but I don't know if they do this kind of exam. Also, the documents are in the NL it seems which makes it even harder.
Oh he's great at it, and he thought he got away with it. The embassy said it was a good job I rang or they would have just done it.

Oh and I know it's all possible via photoshop, but you're not allowed to do it, so I'm shocked when he gets caught it's like he did nothing. Baffles me in a country where everyone is so strict
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  #60  
Old 13.09.2017, 13:23
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Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

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Unless the application was for a Swiss passport it is most likely not a matter for the Swiss jurisdiction unless the Embassy makes a complaint to the Swiss authorities.
Since when? A Swiss document was forged in Switzerland. Depending on the exact document is it not just forgery but most likely unlawful assumption of public authority as well. Swiss authority at that.

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Oh he's great at it, and he thought he got away with it. The embassy said it was a good job I rang or they would have just done it.

Oh and I know it's all possible via photoshop, but you're not allowed to do it, so I'm shocked when he gets caught it's like he did nothing. Baffles me in a country where everyone is so strict
Police seems to be much more interested in theft and more "tangible" crimes. But make sure everyone is informed, that might raise a flag whenever he hands in papers from now on...
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