Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Other/general
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 13.09.2017, 19:57
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 5,161
Groaned at 160 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,572 Times in 3,375 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

Quote:
View Post
Not again Swiss soil - Swiss jurisdiction.
It's Swiss soil, no doubt, but that need not mean Swiss law applies unconditionally.

IIRC the acknowledged supranationals' buildings in CH (UNO, BIS, Red Cross, etc) are not subject to Swiss law (or Swiss authorities may not enter and act without the respective organisation's consent). I'd say this applies worldwide.

Also, IIRC domestic authorities aren't allowed to access a foreign embassy against the other country's will, i.e. domestic law may well apply but it can't be acted upon unconditionally. Perhaps not in every case but it clearly applies to Ecuador's in London, otherwise Assange would have been apprehended and deported to Sweden ages ago.

ETA:

For instance, the agreement on the OECD Court of Arbitration says
(my translation, can't be bothered to search for the English version) [my additions in square brackets]:

§4 "The buildings and the surrounding ground [of the OECD Court] must not be infringed[violated]. No representative of Swiss authorities may access [or enter] them without explicit consent by the court's president or persons authorised to provide such consent."

§5 "The Court's archives must not be infringed. All its records, owned or possessed, must at all times and independent of their location not be infringed."

§6 "The Court is not subject to Swiss jurisdiction and execution except:
1 If the Court freely forgoes that right
[a few minor exceptions follow]"

Last edited by Urs Max; 13.09.2017 at 20:25.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #62  
Old 13.09.2017, 20:15
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Leimbach, Zürich
Posts: 2,189
Groaned at 126 Times in 95 Posts
Thanked 2,067 Times in 1,047 Posts
EdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

Quote:
View Post
It's Swiss soil, no doubt, but that need not mean Swiss law applies unconditionally.

IIRC the acknowledged supranationals' buildings in CH (UNO, BIS, Red Cross, etc) are not subject to Swiss law (or Swiss authorities may not enter and act without the respective organisation's consent). I'd say this applies worldwide.

Also, IIRC domestic authorities aren't allowed to access a foreign embassy against the other country's will, i.e. domestic law may well apply but it can't be acted upon unconditionally. Perhaps not in every case but it clearly applies to Ecuador's in London, otherwise Assange would have been apprehended and deported to Sweden ages ago.
Diplomatic immunity granted to personal, and not entering the building (and specific cars, opening of diplomatic packages and such) without consent is different from which law applies.

To put this case in short: Someone who is not granted diplomatic immunity acted against the Swiss law within Swiss jurisdictional territory, so the Swiss authority can start a case if they feel like it, and if it is serious enough (which it highly likely ain't) ask the Netherlands to hand this person over, or if it would eventually be a fine simply start seizing the money from that person even tho he is in the Netherlands.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank EdwinNL for this useful post:
This user groans at EdwinNL for this post:
  #63  
Old 13.09.2017, 20:28
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 5,161
Groaned at 160 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,572 Times in 3,375 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

Quote:
View Post
To put this case in short: Someone who is not granted diplomatic immunity acted against the Swiss law within Swiss jurisdictional territory, so the Swiss authority can start a case if they feel like it, and if it is serious enough (which it highly likely ain't) ask the Netherlands to hand this person over, or if it would eventually be a fine simply start seizing the money from that person even tho he is in the Netherlands.
Definitely, the forgery isn't covered by diplomatic "specialties". But that's not what I replied to. This may be news to you but there's actually a reason why people quote (parts of) other posts.
Reply With Quote
This user groans at Urs Max for this post:
  #64  
Old 13.09.2017, 20:28
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Winterthur
Posts: 204
Groaned at 6 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 146 Times in 72 Posts
Silvestre has earned the respect of manySilvestre has earned the respect of manySilvestre has earned the respect of many
Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

Quote:
View Post
Oh he's great at it, and he thought he got away with it. The embassy said it was a good job I rang or they would have just done it.
I am not sure what you mean by this.

Generally, I am not saying this is the case with you but, when there is a bitter divorce there are a lot of accusations and counter-accusations thrown. Some of which are exaggerated or false and as such a lot of people are wary of reading too much into. However, if you have a reputable third party (notaries are typically deemed to be reputable) attesting that a fraud has been committed then it would be taken a lot more seriously than your word.

As others have pointed out already:
  • why isn't the notary interested in taking this up? Generally, they are extremely worried about this sort of thing; and
  • all you can do is present the signed affidavit to 1) the Swiss police as the crime was committed in Switzerland and this is the case because the forgery happened well before the documents got to the Embassy; 2) the Dutch Embassy so they are aware that they may have handled fraudulent documents; 3) the ex's Gemeinde so they are aware that they are dealing with a slippery character should he want to extend his permit / naturalise; and 4) court when you are fighting your maintenance payment case etc so the judge is aware that he is an unreliable character.

I hope this case gets the resolution that the kids deserve. Good luck.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 13.09.2017, 21:03
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Leimbach, Zürich
Posts: 2,189
Groaned at 126 Times in 95 Posts
Thanked 2,067 Times in 1,047 Posts
EdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

Quote:
View Post
Definitely, the forgery isn't covered by diplomatic "specialties". But that's not what I replied to. This may be news to you but there's actually a reason why people quote (parts of) other posts.
It may be new to you, but it is 100% Swiss soil and it is 100% Swiss law.

If somebody got raped in the embassy the following situations can occur.

The recieving country has no laws against it, and the embassy's country has.
- The rape is legal.
The recieving country has laws against it, and the embassy doesn't.
- The rape is illegal.

This is all unconditional.

If prosecution would be blocked due to diplomatic immunity than this is beside the fact who's law applies.

To have a law to be applied in another country, the only solution is to declare a part of that country foreign soil, like the Netherlands did with the courtcase against the Lockerbie terrorists, they did declare a small part of the Netherlands to be British soil so the scots could actually speak according to scottish law, after which the Brits gave back the ground to the Netherlands. Embassy's never had such a declaration.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 14.09.2017, 09:52
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 5,161
Groaned at 160 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,572 Times in 3,375 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is forgery criminal or civil law?

Quote:
View Post
If prosecution would be blocked due to diplomatic immunity than this is beside the fact who's law applies.
Nobody says the sending country doesn't prosecute on its own. In such a case clearly the sending country's law applies. This shows that the sending country's law takes precedence.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Inheritance - ( alleged ) forgery ( Fraud / Deception ) Branka Complaints corner 52 23.08.2012 17:30
Civil partnership change in Swiss Law??? ( Taxation issue as a single ) ricardos Finance/banking/taxation 5 04.03.2012 14:22
Criminal law provisions against racial discrimination Aryans Other/general 6 08.06.2011 09:42
So how is this fair? (uk divorce law is an ass) bigblue2 General off-topic 17 28.02.2011 19:26
civil engineering or languages [SO] AnitaHUN Jobs wanted 0 27.10.2009 16:42


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0