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Old 13.09.2017, 21:10
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Embassies in Switzerland - Which countries law applies in case of a crime?

At all: Have fun to discuses the above topic in this thread.
At Mods: You may move off topic chatter to this here.

For reference:

Vienna convention on diplomatic relations
English: legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf
German: https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...070/index.html
French: https://www.admin.ch/opc/fr/classifi...070/index.html
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Old 13.09.2017, 23:13
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Re: Embassies in Switzerland - Which countries law applies in case of a crime?

This is like the TV show Jeopardy.

Normally, someone posts an obscure question and you dig up the law and provide a clear answer along with some links. Now you've given the answer and we're supposed to come up with the question?
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Old 13.09.2017, 23:45
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Re: Embassies in Switzerland - Which countries law applies in case of a crime?

aSwissStuckInTheUSEmbassy?
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Old 13.09.2017, 23:55
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Re: Embassies in Switzerland - Which countries law applies in case of a crime?

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At all: Have fun to discuses the above topic in this thread.
At Mods: You may move off topic chatter to this here.

For reference:

Vienna convention on diplomatic relations
English: legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf
German: https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...070/index.html
French: https://www.admin.ch/opc/fr/classifi...070/index.html
Hey, Jules. I'm really sorry about the thread the other day. I don't really think you're a nazi. Honest.
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Old 14.09.2017, 00:33
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Re: Embassies in Switzerland - Which countries law applies in case of a crime?

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This is like the TV show Jeopardy.

Normally, someone posts an obscure question and you dig up the law and provide a clear answer along with some links. Now you've given the answer and we're supposed to come up with the question?
There's another topic where the same info is stated still people keep popping up stating that these links even tho official are lies and is it how they think it is.

Let them have their party in this topic.
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Old 14.09.2017, 09:10
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Re: Embassies in Switzerland - Which countries law applies in case of a crime?

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This is like the TV show Jeopardy.
As a Mod you may find the questions (or better the offtopic chatter) here:
https://www.englishforum.ch/other-ge...civil-law.html

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Old 14.09.2017, 09:46
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Re: Embassies in Switzerland - Which countries law applies in case of a crime?

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Embassies in Switzerland - Which countries law applies in case of a crime?
So the scenario is, say, murder on the embassy's compounds.

With this prioritisation:
- international law (which only covers stuff like genocide and crimes against humanity)
- the sending state's law and regulations
- if the sending state permits Swiss law
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Old 14.09.2017, 10:19
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Re: Embassies in Switzerland - Which countries law applies in case of a crime?

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So the scenario is, say, murder on the embassy's compounds.

With this prioritisation:
- international law (which only covers stuff like genocide and crimes against humanity)
- the sending state's law and regulations
- if the sending state permits Swiss law
International law is a bit odd, because it only applies if the relevant countries are signed up to the relevant treaties / conventions.

It's not like a layer above national law that automatically applies, similar to cantonal/federal or state/federal law (and even those aren't as simple as that).
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Old 14.09.2017, 10:44
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Re: Embassies in Switzerland - Which countries law applies in case of a crime?

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International law is a bit odd, because it only applies if the relevant countries are signed up to the relevant treaties / conventions.

It's not like a layer above national law that automatically applies, similar to cantonal/federal or state/federal law (and even those aren't as simple as that).
Sure. The term itself is kind of a misnomer as it's actually an agreement that may be followed upon, or not. Same applies to additional bi- or multilateral agreements like the one on the OECD Court I linked to in the other thread. However it's what's usually called so I suggest to stick with that.
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Old 14.09.2017, 10:55
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Re: Embassies in Switzerland - Which countries law applies in case of a crime?

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Sure. The term itself is kind of a misnomer as it's actually an agreement that may be followed upon, or not. Same applies to additional bi- or multilateral agreements like the one on the OECD Court I linked to in the other thread. However it's what's usually called so I suggest to stick with that.
OK - maybe I should have been a bit more clear, and maybe it even adds another line which could be prioritised differently, maybe it's some sort of combination:

International law (as applies to sending state)
International law (as applies to receiving state)
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Old 14.09.2017, 11:49
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Re: Embassies in Switzerland - Which countries law applies in case of a crime?

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So the scenario is, say, murder on the embassy's compounds.
With this priority:
- Receiving state law (this includes international law ratified by this country)
- Sending state law (this includes international law ratified by this country)
- Other national laws (this includes international law ratified by this country) which makes the crime prosecuteable in a party country.
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Old 14.09.2017, 12:42
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Re: Embassies in Switzerland - Which countries law applies in case of a crime?

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With this priority:
- Receiving state law (this includes international law ratified by this country)
- Sending state law (this includes international law ratified by this country)
- Other national laws (this includes international law ratified by this country) which makes the crime prosecuteable in a party country.
An independent country has sovereignty over its territory including subjecting to and applying law as it defines on its own, no other entity has any say in whether and what law is applied. However under the treaties covering embassies it (including CH) cedes that power, its sovereignty over the compounds, to the sending country (SC) or supranational organisation.

The SC may prosecute on its own or not, the RC has no say either way so clearly the RC's law doesn't take priority.

In an almost identical situation this is clearly shown: The US don't send military abroad to fight (probably generally) unless they're granted immunity. Nonetheless those members of the US armed forces are subject to US military law and, if necessary, prosecuted accordingly under US law. Clearly in this case the SC's law takes precedence.
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Old 14.09.2017, 12:49
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Re: Embassies in Switzerland - Which countries law applies in case of a crime?

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An independent country has sovereignty over its territory including subjecting to and applying law as it defines on its own, no other entity has any say in whether and what law is applied. However under the treaties covering embassies it (including CH) cedes that power, its sovereignty over the compounds, to the sending country (SC) or supranational organisation.
Where does it say that exactly? And please do not cite a treaty about a particular international organisation, this is solely about embassies.

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Old 14.09.2017, 12:53
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Re: Embassies in Switzerland - Which countries law applies in case of a crime?

§22.1

If you need permission your're not sovereign.
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Old 14.09.2017, 12:59
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Re: Embassies in Switzerland - Which countries law applies in case of a crime?

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With this prioritisation:
- international law (which only covers stuff like genocide and crimes against humanity)
- the sending state's law and regulations
- if the sending state permits Swiss law
If that were the case it would mean any act which is not an international crime, (and a few specific other as defined in the Swiss Criminal Code), nor a crime in the sending state could not be prosecuted although it is a crime in Switzerland (Art. 6 Swiss Criminal Code).

If what you say is true and Art. 3 Swiss Criminal Code is not valid on Embassy ground I just have to find those loopholes, the corresponding states, simply have to bring somehow my victim in an legal way to the embassy of said state, and do my dirty deeds. Absolutely nonpunishable and fully legal. Nice.

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§22.1

If you need permission your're not sovereign.
You need permission to enter the embassy. It does not say that sending law precedes or host state law is void.

If the culprit has no immunity and leaves the embassy ground he or she is toast. Full Swiss law w/o any precedence or overrule applies.
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Old 14.09.2017, 17:42
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Re: Embassies in Switzerland - Which countries law applies in case of a crime?

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If what you say is true and Art. 3 Swiss Criminal Code is not valid on Embassy ground I just have to find those loopholes, the corresponding states, and simply have to bring somehow my victim in an legal way to the embassy of said state and do my dirty deeds. Absolutely nonpunishable and fully legal. Nice.
Argument accepted.
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Old 15.09.2017, 00:48
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Re: Embassies in Switzerland - Which countries law applies in case of a crime?

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With this priority:
- Receiving state law (this includes international law ratified by this country)
- Sending state law (this includes international law ratified by this country)
- Other national laws (this includes international law ratified by this country) which makes the crime prosecuteable in a party country.
If that's true: Why is Iraqi law apparently not applicable to any US staff in the country?


(And whats a "party country"?)
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Old 15.09.2017, 01:07
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Re: Embassies in Switzerland - Which countries law applies in case of a crime?

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If that's true: Why is Iraqi law apparently not applicable to any US staff in the country?


(And whats a "party country"?)
Did USA and specially Iraq sign the Vienna convention?
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Old 15.09.2017, 01:26
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Re: Embassies in Switzerland - Which countries law applies in case of a crime?

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If that's true: Why is Iraqi law apparently not applicable to any US staff in the country?
Maybe because Iraq has a treaty with the U.S.? If whoever has to power to do so in Iraq ratified it, it became part of the receiving state law.


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(And whats a "party country"?)
Third party country. In some countries, some crimes can be punished regardless who did it and where it happened.
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