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Old 25.02.2018, 10:02
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Considering to leave Switzerland

Hello,

I wonder in which European countries could I save similar amount of money as I could in Switzerland. To give you a rough idea, I am a single person, a junior engineer with a salary bracket of about 75 to 95000CHF and monthly expenses of about CHF2000.

Life in Switzerland is getting depressing and I'm considering to move somewhere else. Also, I don't have much time to think about it as probation period is rolling towards the end and afterwards I would be locked with 3 month notice period.
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Old 25.02.2018, 10:05
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Re: Considering to leave Switzerland

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I wonder in which European countries could I save similar amount of money as I could in Switzerland.
None.

Tom
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Old 25.02.2018, 10:41
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Re: Considering to leave Switzerland

Nowhere
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Old 25.02.2018, 10:42
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Re: Considering to leave Switzerland

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Hello,

I wonder in which European countries could I save similar amount of money as I could in Switzerland. To give you a rough idea, I am a single person, a junior engineer with a salary bracket of about 75 to 95000CHF and monthly expenses of about CHF2000.

Life in Switzerland is getting depressing and I'm considering to move somewhere else. Also, I don't have much time to think about it as probation period is rolling towards the end and afterwards I would be locked with 3 month notice period.
You would have to look at it less in absolute terms and more in how it would work out relatively. You could move to, say, Germany, be on a lower salary but have lower living expenses so your net living standard would be similar to here (if you squint really hard and keep an open mind )

How long have you been in Switzerland? If it's just the 3 month probation period (or thereabouts as you allude to in your post), anything under 6 months is probably not enough time to settle into a country. Switzerland is indeed not the easiest country to settle in but, given perseverance and finding an ability to roll with the punches, it's not a bad place to be.
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Old 25.02.2018, 10:48
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Re: Considering to leave Switzerland

The question is WHY is life getting depressing here? And what makes you think any other country will be any different??

Life is what YOU make it, not what country you live in (though I have to admit the likes of Afghanistan would get me down)...
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Old 25.02.2018, 11:03
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Re: Considering to leave Switzerland

And what country are you from?

Tom
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Old 25.02.2018, 11:28
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Re: Considering to leave Switzerland

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You would have to look at it less in absolute terms and more in how it would work out relatively. You could move to, say, Germany, be on a lower salary but have lower living expenses so your net living standard would be similar to here (if you squint really hard and keep an open mind )
It's highly desirable to save money which would be spent in my home country (solving the young adult's housing question). Therefore I have to look at it in absolute terms.

Quote:
How long have you been in Switzerland? If it's just the 3 month probation period (or thereabouts as you allude to in your post), anything under 6 months is probably not enough time to settle into a country. Switzerland is indeed not the easiest country to settle in but, given perseverance and finding an ability to roll with the punches, it's not a bad place to be.
It's 6 months and unfortunately there are too many punches that my mind could handle long term. If I stay here I am either a big sellout justifying all the punches with a high salary, or I would had found a wicked trick how make life better.
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Old 25.02.2018, 11:55
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Re: Considering to leave Switzerland

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a salary bracket of about 75 to 95000CHF and monthly expenses of about CHF2000........ Life in Switzerland is getting depressing
2K expenses covers I think if that is all you spend on rent, insurance, food, phone, internet, transport. Your spending not a lot in a very expensive country, anywhere would be dull or depressing if you are not getting out and about. Sounds like you are saving to much and living to little, and missing what Switzerland has to offer... all of which costs.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 25.02.2018 at 15:46. Reason: fixed quote, for real this time ;)
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Old 25.02.2018, 11:55
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Re: Considering to leave Switzerland

Liechtenstein
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Old 25.02.2018, 12:41
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Re: Considering to leave Switzerland

Money is only a tool, to get somewhere or getting something.
The possibilities are endless.
If you have the money and the time.......

All countries face problems of their own (drugs, economy , pollution, migrants,
transportation), what country do you want to live in ?
Do you have the permit to work/live there ?
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Old 25.02.2018, 13:01
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Re: Considering to leave Switzerland

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The question is WHY is life getting depressing here?And what makes you think any other country will be any different?

Life is what YOU make it, not what country you live in (though I have to admit the likes of Afghanistan would get me down)...
Well here are the main problems:

1. Social life
Rejection, exclusion, isolation.

Below are some of the highlights of my last 6 consecutive interactions with local people. Just to give you an idea of what's going on.

Dude 1: So, how long are you here?
Me: Quite a few months. I still feel like a tourist, but maybe after some time I'll stop feeling that way.
Person 1: Well, regardless how do you feel, for me, you'll be always a tourist. *leaves me*
Me:

Dude 2: In Switzerland, you're either accepted or not. One should be able to find this out in two weeks of arrival, but since you're here longer than this time you already know the answer.
*leaves me*

Dude 3. I approached some dude and he didn't say anything. Instead he gave me some strange look followed by waiving with a paw, indicating to move away. It was worse than approaching spoiled woman.

Dude 4. Then there was a guy, who jumped in front of me and started to stretch his face with hands in order to mimic my mug and make fun of it. And it wasn't a kid, it a was a young adult. I was horrified, because I've never experienced anything like this, especially from an adult male. I wanted to penalize him with a punch in the face, but I decided not to.

Dude 5: Where are you from?
After revealing where do I come from, the guy disappeared like a magician.

me: Can I have a cigarette?
Dude 6: You know, that we have a cigarette machines here? Can't you see them?
me thinking: "a-shole.". Then I moved away.

At this point I got fed up and headed it home. On the way to home I've hit a group of Germans, the same guys that I've spoken with before. One of them, apparently drunk, saw me alone wandering around. He called me and laughed loud: "Hey John! Can you introduce us your invisible local friend? Ha-ha-ha-ha! Have you really thought that you would meet some locals here?! Dude, this is f-ckin Switzerland! We have warned you!"

2. Dullness and boredom. I can't imagine australians moving here. Suicide mission.

3. Life style based around living to work and not working to live. I can't image greeks moving here. Sucide mission.

Long working hours. Leaving at 7, arriving at 7.

Company not giving a damn about me. They called me in two days after I've sent them CV, but hired me after multiple of months, probably because they weren't able to find anything better, and at the same time cheaper. If I'd do a smallest mistake, I'd probably be fired. Was called "slav scheisse". Constantly listening to coworkers about how Germany and EU are bad. There were also some very cheesy moments, for example when we had a team-meeting and it was time to read an email with a list of Chinese names in it. Whole team started to make fun of Chinese names and mimicking their faces.

That's not how i would define a good working environment.

4. Rubbish weather. No sun, the mist, the fog. Very depressive.

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The question is WHY is life getting depressing here?And what makes you think any other country will be any different?

Life is what YOU make it, not what country you live in (though I have to admit the likes of Afghanistan would get me down)...
I've been in other countries before. I was bullied, I was called scum, I was called out, got broken in the house, fought battles with most arrogant people on the Earth, been yelled at from randoms,... Experiences were very mixed but at the end of day, there was always something to find and I didn't feel that segregated in a society as I do in Switzerland. It's not that else it was perfect, but it wasn't that horrible as Switzerland is. Switzerland is just so tiring or something, it's hard to explain it really.
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Old 25.02.2018, 13:25
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Re: Considering to leave Switzerland

My Greek partner loves it here.

You say you're Slav, then say this...
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I've been in other countries before. I was bullied, I was called scum, I was called out, got broken in the house, fought battles with most arrogant people on the Earth, been yelled at from randoms,...
Why would randoms yell at you? I couldn't recognise a Slav if he was standing in front of me, so perhaps you have a chip on your shoulder or an aggressive attitude to elicit all this anger from people?
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Old 25.02.2018, 13:40
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Re: Considering to leave Switzerland

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My Greek partner loves it here.

You say you're Slav, then say this...

Why would randoms yell at you...
your greek partner is a male model and i'm not. his quality of life is reflected accordingly.

i'm in the other boat. when people see me they assume that i'm albanian drug dealer, and they can get very hostile, in particular women. it's a bit challenging to establish a good social experience with this asset, especially in a foreign culture.
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Old 25.02.2018, 13:43
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Re: Considering to leave Switzerland

It sounds like you need a self-confidence boost more than anything.
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Old 25.02.2018, 13:58
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Re: Considering to leave Switzerland

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Well here are the main problems:

1. Social life
Rejection, exclusion, isolation.

Below are some of the highlights of my last 6 consecutive interactions with local people. Just to give you an idea of what's going on.

Dude 1: So, how long are you here?
Me: Quite a few months. I still feel like a tourist, but maybe after some time I'll stop feeling that way.
Person 1: Well, regardless how do you feel, for me, you'll be always a tourist. *leaves me*
Me:
People are like this everywhere. If you move on to another country, you will likely find a similar attitude.

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Dude 2: In Switzerland, you're either accepted or not. One should be able to find this out in two weeks of arrival, but since you're here longer than this time you already know the answer.
*leaves me*
Sounds like a complete knobhead. Why does he think he can speak for everyone, and what's with the two weeks thing?

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Dude 3. I approached some dude and he didn't say anything. Instead he gave me some strange look followed by waiving with a paw, indicating to move away. It was worse than approaching spoiled woman.
Why did you approach him? Most people get a bit antsy if you are in their face for no reason. Even me as "a spoiled woman" would likely react if someone just approached me for no apparent reason.

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Dude 4. Then there was a guy, who jumped in front of me and started to stretch his face with hands in order to mimic my mug and make fun of it. And it wasn't a kid, it a was a young adult. I was horrified, because I've never experienced anything like this, especially from an adult male. I wanted to penalize him with a punch in the face, but I decided not to.
Sounds mentally deranged. Switzerland doesn't have a monopoly on nutters - believe me, I've been in Leeds on a Saturday night. They're everywhere.

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Dude 5: Where are you from?
After revealing where do I come from, the guy disappeared like a magician.
Puff of smoke, too?

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me: Can I have a cigarette?
Dude 6: You know, that we have a cigarette machines here? Can't you see them?
me thinking: "a-shole.". Then I moved away.
Maybe he didn't smoke. I think I would react the same but maybe use a bit more choice Anglo-saxon if someone was trying to bum cigarettes from me (I don't smoke). Why do you think people will just hand over cigs to you?

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At this point I got fed up and headed it home. On the way to home I've hit a group of Germans, the same guys that I've spoken with before. One of them, apparently drunk, saw me alone wandering around. He called me and laughed loud: "Hey John! Can you introduce us your invisible local friend? Ha-ha-ha-ha! Have you really thought that you would meet some locals here?! Dude, this is f-ckin Switzerland! We have warned you!"
Drunk people - ahhh, those sage people who think you should always take note of their solid and rational advice fuelled by a night on the piss..

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2. Dullness and boredom. I can't imagine australians moving here. Suicide mission.
There are quite a few Aussies here. Seem to do all right.

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3. Life style based around living to work and not working to live. I can't image greeks moving here. Sucide mission.

Long working hours. Leaving at 7, arriving at 7.
Your boss is taking the piss. Log your hours and make it up as days off. If he complains, find another job.

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Company not giving a damn about me. They called me in two days after I've sent them CV, but hired me after multiple of months, probably because they weren't able to find anything better, and at the same time cheaper. If I'd do a smallest mistake, I'd probably be fired. Was called "slav scheisse". Constantly listening to coworkers about how Germany and EU are bad. There were also some very cheesy moments, for example when we had a team-meeting and it was time to read an email with a list of Chinese names in it. Whole team started to make fun of Chinese names and mimicking their faces.

That's not how i would define a good working environment.
The recruitment process is slow for everyone, so not much to fret about there. Your work colleagues sound pretty low-brow. What kind of work is it? Are they all Swiss or is it a mix of nationalities?

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4. Rubbish weather. No sun, the mist, the fog. Very depressive.
Yup. Summer is ok, though. If you want sun in the winter, you have to take a trip into the mountains.



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I've been in other countries before. I was bullied, I was called scum, I was called out, got broken in the house, fought battles with most arrogant people on the Earth, been yelled at from randoms,... Experiences were very mixed but at the end of day, there was always something to find and I didn't feel that segregated in a society as I do in Switzerland. It's not that else it was perfect, but it wasn't that horrible as Switzerland is. Switzerland is just so tiring or something, it's hard to explain it really.
Which other countries did you live in?
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Old 25.02.2018, 14:01
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Re: Considering to leave Switzerland

Well my friend!

There are now about 9 better places from the list of top ten to choose from:

https://www.thetoptens.com/best-countries-live-in/

Why Liechtenstein ain't listed is beyond me!

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Old 25.02.2018, 14:09
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Re: Considering to leave Switzerland

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Dude 3. I approached some dude and he didn't say anything. Instead he gave me some strange look followed by waiving with a paw, indicating to move away.
Paw? Was he a dog? No wonder he didn't say anything...
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Old 25.02.2018, 14:14
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Re: Considering to leave Switzerland

First, to answer your question: You could consider Netherlands. I've looked at most Western European tax systems and came to the conclusion that Switzerland and Netherlands have the most advantageous. There's some 30% ruling, I forgot how it works, but it's something along the lines of "If you reach 70K EUR salary, you pay a lot less tax %".
Switzerland has a lot lower % salary tax, around 30% if you count health insurance premium as part of it and can get lower with C permit and your salary can go a lot higher, hence why I chose Switzerland, among other things


I don't know what to say about your social problem. What you described does sound depressing. I've heard that Swiss are a bit more conservative, not so welcoming to foreigners. However I haven't experienced anything like that. My workplace is 20% Swiss, 80% foreigners and I'm getting along really well with both groups*, better than I expected actually.

* By groups, I don't actually mean cliques, everyone's cool with everyone here.

Not sure what to say, try actively making friends with 1-2 people at work, hang out with them, get in their social circle?
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Old 25.02.2018, 14:30
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Re: Considering to leave Switzerland

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First, to answer your question: You could consider Netherlands. I've looked at most Western European tax systems and came to the conclusion that Switzerland and Netherlands have the most advantageous. There's some 30% ruling, I forgot how it works, but it's something along the lines of "If you reach 70K EUR salary, you pay a lot less tax %".
Forget about that. Nothing advantageous on the NL tax system and that specific rule only counts for expats and that only for some amount of years.
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Old 25.02.2018, 17:10
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Re: Considering to leave Switzerland

Your post sounds like you are focusing a lot (too much?) on yourself. Integration is a two way street. As much as you can expect the Swiss to do their part for your integration, you are expected to do yours too.

Try to focus on the group that you are with. "Group" could be anything from your co-workers, the customers of the pub that you're in, the people, who wait at the same tram station etc. Observe them and try to "fit in" a little at a time. And with "fit in" I don't mean ass-licking!

Anyway, if you come across as depressed or desperate, you'll find rejection every time, everywhere. Ain't no paradise on earth, unless you make your own, wherever.
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