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Old 23.03.2018, 01:25
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who can help me if I am treated unfairly by unemployment OCE and Caisse de chomage?

Hi everyone

I am in Geneva and resigned from my job end December due to the frustration, stress and very long working hour.

Now I am being treated very unfairly by my “counsellor” at Office Cantonal d'emploi and also caisse de chomage. They are really behaving very bossy. As I am quite new to unemployment, I don't know which organization (or company, I can pay if reasonable price) can help me to defend my right?

I feel very helpless and frustrated and even think about giving up all the unemployment payment, as I think anyway I will find a job in 2 or 3 months and I only have obligations with these people and will not benefit much (see below)
Thanks

Details:
OCE: the counsellor never listens to me and is very bossy, he signed me up for an irrelevant course in French and told me brutally that I don't have a choice for courses, (when I asked that if he wants to put me on courses, may I go to some IT courses?)
He not only doesn't help me for my job search but is an obstacle for me to find a job (the proof is instead of preparing for my interview, I am writing this post now in the midnight). This guy’s mind-set is still old-fashioned and doesn’t understand at all my approach that I need time to search info and meet some contacts for a potential employer before sending them my application. Even I worked in a highly specialized and ENGLISH-SPEAKING industry, he asks me to tell everyone I see that I am looking for a job, he mentioned cashier in supermarket and employee at bakery...this is ridiculous as I almost worked in banking sector.

Caisse de Chomage: to get a better service I have chosen a caisse which I have to pay a percentage of my income to get "adhesion" and in their website they claim to provide help including possible recourse against OCE. However my contact refuses to even meet me saying that the person who received me for subscription has taken lots of time with me. This is true, but I didn't ask anything in particular, the session was long only because she basically cannot use a computer (older generation). They also decided that I will not be paid unemployment for about 3 months, even I provided all the docs showing why I quit my job.
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Old 23.03.2018, 01:44
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Re: who can help me if I am treated unfairly by unemployment OCE and Caisse de chomag

You need to go through the motions for applying for the jobs. Why don't you apply to the jobs at the supermarket and bakery? Not like you will get them with your non-existent French.

Also your counselor sounds excellent to me. Sending you to free French classes so you can learn to speak French to give you better employment prospect in the French speaking part of the country?

Their job is to get you a job as quick as possible so that you aren't a burden on the unemployment fund. If you don't like it then stop taking the chomage.
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Old 23.03.2018, 01:47
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Re: who can help me if I am treated unfairly by unemployment OCE and Caisse de chomag

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You need to go through the motions for applying for the jobs. Why don't you apply to the jobs at the supermarket and bakery? Not like you will get them with your non-existent French.

Also your counselor sounds excellent to me. Sending you to free French classes so you can learn to speak French to give you better employment prospect in the French speaking part of the country?

Their job is to get you a job as quick as possible so that you aren't a burden on the unemployment fund. If you don't like it then stop taking the chomage.
It's not a French course, it's a course IN FRENCH which is irrelavant
I already have C1 level in French.

I was working in an investment bank and clearly am not interested in working in a supermarket, also I am not from the EU so they cannot justify hiring me for a junior position like that
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Old 23.03.2018, 07:10
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Re: who can help me if I am treated unfairly by unemployment OCE and Caisse de chomag

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It's not a French course, it's a course IN FRENCH which is irrelavant
I already have C1 level in French.

I was working in an investment bank and clearly am not interested in working in a supermarket, also I am not from the EU so they cannot justify hiring me for a junior position like that
Of course they can.
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Old 23.03.2018, 07:46
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Re: who can help me if I am treated unfairly by unemployment OCE and Caisse de chomag

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Of course they can.
I presume the OP means that the supermarket can't justify employing a non-EU person over a local. Unless the OP has amazing cashier skills not available here.
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Old 23.03.2018, 08:37
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Re: who can help me if I am treated unfairly by unemployment OCE and Caisse de chomag

Depends on the permit type. If it's an open B or a C permit then there's no justification needed. There may not be even if it's a tied B permit, since RAV are now effectively their employer. So might not come under the non-EU hiring rules and quotas.

Quitting your job incurs a penalty as far as receiving unemployment. It doesn't matter why, only that you did. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

As far as RAV is concerned you should be applying for anything you could do, be it in your field of expertise or working in a supermarket. They're not interested in you picking and choosing what you apply for. As porsch1909 said, they're only interested in getting back into work as quickly as possible, whatever that may be. You should be making around 10-12 job applications a month.
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Old 23.03.2018, 08:59
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Re: who can help me if I am treated unfairly by unemployment OCE and Caisse de chomag

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Hi everyone

I am in Geneva and resigned from my job end December due to the frustration, stress and very long working hour.

Now I am being treated very unfairly by my “counsellor” at Office Cantonal d'emploi and also caisse de chomage. They are really behaving very bossy. As I am quite new to unemployment, I don't know which organization (or company, I can pay if reasonable price) can help me to defend my right?

I feel very helpless and frustrated and even think about giving up all the unemployment payment, as I think anyway I will find a job in 2 or 3 months and I only have obligations with these people and will not benefit much (see below)
Thanks

Details:
OCE: the counsellor never listens to me and is very bossy, he signed me up for an irrelevant course in French and told me brutally that I don't have a choice for courses, (when I asked that if he wants to put me on courses, may I go to some IT courses?)
He not only doesn't help me for my job search but is an obstacle for me to find a job (the proof is instead of preparing for my interview, I am writing this post now in the midnight). This guy’s mind-set is still old-fashioned and doesn’t understand at all my approach that I need time to search info and meet some contacts for a potential employer before sending them my application. Even I worked in a highly specialized and ENGLISH-SPEAKING industry, he asks me to tell everyone I see that I am looking for a job, he mentioned cashier in supermarket and employee at bakery...this is ridiculous as I almost worked in banking sector.

Caisse de Chomage: to get a better service I have chosen a caisse which I have to pay a percentage of my income to get "adhesion" and in their website they claim to provide help including possible recourse against OCE. However my contact refuses to even meet me saying that the person who received me for subscription has taken lots of time with me. This is true, but I didn't ask anything in particular, the session was long only because she basically cannot use a computer (older generation). They also decided that I will not be paid unemployment for about 3 months, even I provided all the docs showing why I quit my job.
Sounds like your pride is getting in the way of doing what you need to do to get your unemployment insurance money. He knows you won't be a supermarket casher, you know you won't be supermarket cashier, so just nod your head and smile, send in the necessary applications and do your best to screw up any sham (for jobs you would never want to do) interviews you have.
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Old 23.03.2018, 11:15
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Re: who can help me if I am treated unfairly by unemployment OCE and Caisse de chomag

As said above 'Quitting your job incurs a penalty as far as receiving unemployment. It doesn't matter why, only that you did. Sorry, but that's the way it is.'

In fact, as I published a case a couple of years ago- if you quit without trying to officially resolve issues with management- without giving them the chance to work those issues out with you - then they are entitled to NOT pay anything at all. Chômage is for people who lose their jobs, not quit them- unless you go through proper channels with HR/management- to tell them your problems, and try to work out ways to resolve them, with their support. If you just resign, without going through this process- chômage/Rav can penalise you, but can also refuse to cover you.
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Old 23.03.2018, 11:20
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Re: who can help me if I am treated unfairly by unemployment OCE and Caisse de chomag

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As far as RAV is concerned you should be applying for anything you could do, be it in your field of expertise or working in a supermarket. They're not interested in you picking and choosing what you apply for. As porsch1909 said, they're only interested in getting back into work as quickly as possible, whatever that may be. You should be making around 10-12 job applications a month.
Actually in my experience the RAV won't push you into jobs which would ultimately wreck your career and if the advisor is pushing for that then the OP should have a word with a superior. Yes, it's their duty to get you back into work but they are (or at least should be) fairly realistic.

If s/he's in banking and they are trying to get him or her to apply for jobs in a bakery or stacking shelves at Migros that's not RAV protocol. Maybe the RAV advisor is trying to hit some kind of quota?

I agree they don't have to send people on courses of their own choosing and the usual ones are either language-based courses or "how to write your CV" kind of courses.

OP, as others have said - you jacked in your job which always incurs penalties with the unemployment people. Always better to stay in a job, no matter how mind-bending it is, and try to find a way out to a new position from there.
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Old 23.03.2018, 11:33
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Re: who can help me if I am treated unfairly by unemployment OCE and Caisse de chomag

Sorry to say this, but terribly wrong approach... you should look for another job BEFORE quitting your actual one, then you wouldn't have this issue...

On the other hand, I agree that someone with experience in Banking, Trading, or whatever their area of expertise is shouldnt be working at McDonalds...
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Old 23.03.2018, 11:33
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Re: who can help me if I am treated unfairly by unemployment OCE and Caisse de chomag

Being unemployed is stressful. You have my sympathy for this. Therefore, it is best to choose your battles, and take good decisions about where to invest your energy. For that reason alone, it can be a wise decision not to fight against the requirements of the advisor, but just to get on with fulfilling whatever is required of you.

Doing so may well cost you less energy and nerves, and free you up for your real task, which is finding a job.

Some of what they require will be annoying and seem to have no purpose. Try to get those parts over and done with as soon as you can, so that you can tick them off the list each month, and be reliable in bringing in the documentary proof that you have fulfilled everything they said you must do. At least that way you'll get your money, and be in peace with the advisor.

Others parts, for example the chance to attend a course to improve your language skills, or advice about how to improve your c.v., are great. Jump at those opportunities, and use every minute to learn, learn, learn. Don't just tick off the minutes till you can get the teacher's signature to prove that you attended. That'd be a waste. No. Soak up the benefit all the courses you're given. I'm not necessarily claiming you'll have fun doing them, although you might well be able to influence the others in the class when you get there, and make it into a good experience. I even know someone who found a job through one of the classmates in his unemployment language class!

Learning more of the local language will help not only to find a job, but has the potential to improve all sorts of other aspects of your ordinary, daily life - including (but not only!) understanding the rules about chommage.
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Old 23.03.2018, 11:46
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Re: who can help me if I am treated unfairly by unemployment OCE and Caisse de chomag

Putting to one side, for a miniute, the question of resigning the old job, you have to realise that RAV are now your effective employer and that you have to do what they think is best. I imagine that the course was a CV-writing, job-applying type of thing, which is fairly common, and whether you think it's relevant or not is of no importance.

In effect, you've quite one job without finding another, falling back on the RAV, but without realising that this would in all probability be worse that the old job. Sorry for that, but you have no choice except to suck up to them or to de-register from RAV and get no money from them at all.
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Old 23.03.2018, 12:00
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Re: who can help me if I am treated unfairly by unemployment OCE and Caisse de chomag

It'd be a pity to de-register from the unemployment office, as tempting as that option may be, when one is frustrated with the system and the advisor.

The thing is: you don't know how long you'll be out of work. If you self-fund the next few months, but then still don't find work and run out of savings, you might have to come back to the unemployment office again, later. And THEN you will be asked why you de-registered before. And THEN the cycle starts again, and if, for example, you refused to attend the courses they offered you in the first round, it may very likely count against you in the next round.

Unemployment benefits are an insurance. Therefore, you are entitled to them, if you have paid in your contributions.

However, like any other insurance, you are required to minimise the damage, so as to keep the costs low. Improving your language skills, and applying for jobs, and proving this to the advisor, are considered your fair share of showing that you are trying to keep the unemployment costs low. Your doing so counts in your favour. Your not doing so results in penalties.
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Old 23.03.2018, 12:49
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Re: who can help me if I am treated unfairly by unemployment OCE and Caisse de chomag

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Putting to one side, for a miniute, the question of resigning the old job, you have to realise that RAV are now your effective employer and that you have to do what they think is best. I imagine that the course was a CV-writing, job-applying type of thing, which is fairly common, and whether you think it's relevant or not is of no importance.

In effect, you've quite one job without finding another, falling back on the RAV, but without realising that this would in all probability be worse that the old job. Sorry for that, but you have no choice except to suck up to them or to de-register from RAV and get no money from them at all.
Deregistering from RAV could also have an effect on the permit when it's due to prolong.
Being with RAV is a reason to be here. Hanging around, looking for a job isn't.

Unless OP has a C, is an approved refugee or is married to a Swiss I am surprised a foreigner who knows the permit depends on having a job would quit it without having a new contract.
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Old 23.03.2018, 12:57
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Re: who can help me if I am treated unfairly by unemployment OCE and Caisse de chomag

If you decide to opt out of the ORP (OCE in Geneva?) you will also no longer be registered with the Caisse de Chômage, and in turn also lose your health insurance offered by the state through the assurance maladie (LVLAMal), seeing as they are all linked.


It would seem from what you have written that you resigned from your job position just lately, within the last 3 months hence your annoyance at the 3 month penalty imposed (which as far as I am aware, is a common occurrence in most countries, not just in CH, certainly similar happens in the UK, but perhaps not where you come from?).


Based on personal experience and form friends here, and in defence of your conseiller, you have no idea how lucky you are to have already been offered a course! More often than not this usually only happens many months down the road, when it is obvious your CV etc. is not attracting any positive results. Take the course.


Finally, when in the initial throws of unemployment and job hunting, one usually begins this period with a long list of companies they would love to work for, then a second list of companies that are less attractive to us but certainly worth considering, and finally a third list of "in desperation I can always adapt myself and work for them" companies.
As you are obviously only in the early period, your first list is what you are working on, and surely that list must be large enough for you to be able to supply the required monthly applications imposed on you by your conseiller, doing that should keep him satisfied and off your back.
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Old 23.03.2018, 13:21
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Re: who can help me if I am treated unfairly by unemployment OCE and Caisse de chomag

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As far as RAV is concerned you should be applying for anything you could do, be it in your field of expertise or working in a supermarket. They're not interested in you picking and choosing what you apply for. As porsch1909 said, they're only interested in getting back into work as quickly as possible, whatever that may be.
Even on RAV you have the right to turn down jobs that may hurt your career. So, no supermarket jobs for experienced professionals. This doesn't protect them from going down the ladder in their field of expertise though.
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Old 23.03.2018, 13:55
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Re: who can help me if I am treated unfairly by unemployment OCE and Caisse de chomag

Long story super short:
1. Don't quit your job if you do not understand the consequences.
2. Don't expect the unemployment office to treat you like a delicate flower.
3. "Unemployment" is essentially a job in the Swiss system which comes with a couple of (pretty basic) responsibilities.


You can whine about it all you want, it's really simple: If you want the money, play by their rules.
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Old 23.03.2018, 15:32
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Re: who can help me if I am treated unfairly by unemployment OCE and Caisse de chomag

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Even on RAV you have the right to turn down jobs that may hurt your career. So, no supermarket jobs for experienced professionals. This doesn't protect them from going down the ladder in their field of expertise though.
But not if you are younger than 30 years old. At that age you have to take up nearly any job.

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If you decide to opt out of the ORP (OCE in Geneva?) you will also no longer be registered with the Caisse de Chômage, and in turn also lose your health insurance offered by the state through the assurance maladie (LVLAMal), seeing as they are all linked.
Only accident insurance is covered by OCE/ORP/RAV etc. Just like only the accident insurance is covered by a regular employer. You will have to include the accident part in your normal health insurance if you are not otherwise covered. That can be done quite simple by informing your current healt insurance that you need also accident coverage, one you take up emplyment which also covers accident you can as simple remove it again from the standard healt insurance.
The accident insurance part is maybe CHF 10 per month. Give or take.
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Old 23.03.2018, 21:41
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Re: who can help me if I am treated unfairly by unemployment OCE and Caisse de chomag

And if you're long-termn unemployed and not with RAV (who'd pay for that) you have to start paying AHV or you'll have costly "holes".

Yeah, yeah, lots to remember when not with RAV.
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Old 23.03.2018, 22:23
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Re: who can help me if I am treated unfairly by unemployment OCE and Caisse de chomag

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And if you're long-termn unemployed and not with RAV (who'd pay for that) you have to start paying AHV or you'll have costly "holes".

Yeah, yeah, lots to remember when not with RAV.
They wil send you bills for AHV, nothing to remember.

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