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-   -   Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande (https://www.englishforum.ch/other-general/284057-nestle-cuts-580-logistics-jobs-swiss-romande.html)

Gramatyka356 20.09.2018 14:11

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_MCR (Post 2993543)
i sometimes wonder if getting made redundant would be so bad if you got 2 years 'garden leave' plus RAV...

Yeah, it all depends how you see it. I experience this situation first hand, I wasn't at Nestle though.

I love my work even though I tend to agree that software developers are being pushed at the bottom of every organization. First thing was regret and I eagerly searched the job market with lots of anxiety. From perspective I'd say I panicked. I got used to the situation, all stress gone. It's not nice if you are rejected because of any little thing and the rare occasion when you get the offer it's below your chomage/RAV. However I can continue doing what I can regarding the job search. It doesn't take much time. I finally have time for self development and even though most likely I'll leave Switzerland when the chomage ends, as there's plenty of interesting jobs out there, I'd say it's quite refreshing to have a career break. You have the opportunity to see things from perspective.

Treverus 20.09.2018 14:54

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_MCR (Post 2993543)
hopefully you get a large payoff.

i sometimes wonder if getting made redundant would be so bad if you got 2 years 'garden leave' plus RAV...

But that's rarely happening in Switzerland, isn't it? In other EU countries do you get a year or so because the labour laws make the employers do it... not because they like to blow money on you.


And on the masses of Indian developers who "absorbed the knowledge"... honestly: Ive been told the best part of two decades that some Indian would take over my job one day. Its not happening and anyone who has worked in some outsourcing project knows exactly why. Cheap oversee labour is not a danger to a good IT person. Depending on what you do is automation the thing to look out for...

Kedi 20.09.2018 15:14

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Leszek (Post 2993561)
even though most likely I'll leave Switzerland when the chomage ends, as there's plenty of interesting jobs out there, I'd say it's quite refreshing to have a career break. You have the opportunity to see things from perspective.


Off-topic but from the post below I though you got a job and even more offers. I remember this thread well because I was looking for a job then as well.

https://www.englishforum.ch/employme...ml#post2912754

Today only 20.09.2018 15:20

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinkiwinki (Post 2993525)
This is another Canton my friend. Different rules apply


Châtel is 10 minutes up the A12......from Vevey.


What rules exactly are different in finding a job ???

Gramatyka356 20.09.2018 15:43

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kedi (Post 2993579)
Off-topic but from the post below I though you got a job and even more offers. I remember this thread well because I was looking for a job then as well.

Indeed but sadly I've made the wrong choice. The job I took did not work out. Now there's a dry season again :( though job ads started to fill the boards. Nonetheless most often when I get to the finals the renumeration does not match my expectations. I don't aim too high, I hope, but earning < 100k is below what I consider good enough to continue working in Switzerland.

JoshWilliams 20.09.2018 15:44

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2993573)
And on the masses of Indian developers who "absorbed the knowledge"... honestly: Ive been told the best part of two decades that some Indian would take over my job one day. Its not happening and anyone who has worked in some outsourcing project knows exactly why. Cheap oversee labour is not a danger to a good IT person. Depending on what you do is automation the thing to look out for...

Not sure when was last time you ever walked in a multinational IT office here in Switzerland but you should be able to recognize what I'm talking about, without getting into any sort of racial statement here which is not the intention. You would be surprised to find out how many of them became permanent employees, after dropping out of IBM or Infosys for example. And btw even automation is usually offshored to India nowadays. Nice guys but just stealing jobs using multinational offshore programs as the vehicle to get directly in touch with end clients. Meanwhile we have plenty of unemployed engineers in surrounding countries and Switzerland trying to control immigration! Would be ridiculous if it was not sad.

Treverus 20.09.2018 16:03

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshWilliams (Post 2993588)
Not sure when was last time you ever walked in a multinational IT office here in Switzerland but you should be able to recognize what I'm talking about, without getting into any sort of racial statement here which is not the intention. You would be surprised to find out how many of them became permanent employees, after dropping out of IBM or Infosys for example. And btw even automation is usually offshored to India nowadays. Nice guys but just stealing jobs using multinational offshore programs as the vehicle to get directly in touch with end clients. Meanwhile we have plenty of unemployed engineers in surrounding countries and Switzerland trying to control immigration! Would be ridiculous if it was not sad.



Ok, then let me be clear: I worked for an international software company and my developers were based in Hyderabad. I have been there many times. I could tell you now in length why off-shoring typically fails, but lets just say that the hourly rate is not the only thing one should think of when planning an organization.


But you were much more concerned about the expats already here... Some of the smartest developers I met in my career were Indians... and so were the vast majority of the bad ones.


If you feel threatened by a guy who faced
- massive cultural differences
- language issues
- on average a worse education than Europeans
- no network
- extremely high hurdles to get a work permit


Well, lets just say that if you cannot compete than there is something wrong with you, not "them".


I am working in the EU now and when I look around am I one of the last Western Europeans around. Hungarians, Romanians, Polish are much more common. Less cultural differences, better education, no immigration hurdles than Indians... that's a proper competition. I can today easily get a team of well educated and motivated guys in Ukraine for the same price as in India. And even then: I think there will be more IT people getting fired for jobs that will be automated in the near future than for being replaced with some cheaper immigrant within the country. The Indian guy in your department is not taking your job, that's a myth.

Gramatyka356 20.09.2018 16:03

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2993573)
And on the masses of Indian developers who "absorbed the knowledge"... honestly: Ive been told the best part of two decades that some Indian would take over my job one day. Its not happening and anyone who has worked in some outsourcing project knows exactly why. Cheap oversee labour is not a danger to a good IT person. Depending on what you do is automation the thing to look out for...

Companies rise and fall, business moves but somehow new investment fills the gap since there's not enough people with skills worldwide. Furthermore the demand for software engineers is constantly growing. The situation in Switzerland is quite unique. The currency is too strong and the prices have to fall to match the surrounding economies. So far I can tell that the salaries on offer try to fall but until the cost of living falls it is unacceptable. I don't agree to work in a country where local services and shopping feels too expensive for your salary.

Treverus 20.09.2018 16:07

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Leszek (Post 2993601)
Companies rise and fall, business moves but somehow new investment fills the gap since there's not enough people with skills worldwide. Furthermore the demand for software engineers is constantly growing. The situation in Switzerland is quite unique. The currency is too strong and the prices have to fall to match the surrounding economies. So far I can tell that the salaries on offer tend to fall but until the cost of living falls it is unacceptable. I don't want to work in a country where local services and shopping feels too expensive for your salary.


I fully agree. The typical Zurich banking IT contract fell from well over 1k a day to some 650 CHFs within the last ten years or so. At the same time are day rates in places like Luxembourg, Brussels or Paris easily 500 EUR as well. The Swiss tax system might be better but it does not make up for the higher cost of living. Simply put: Switzerland isn't as competitive as it used to be for IT professionals.

Gramatyka356 20.09.2018 16:24

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2993600)
The Indian guy in your department is not taking your job, that's a myth.

That's absolutely true. People, especially young, may agree to sacrifice a short time accepting lower wage but not for long term.

Kedi 20.09.2018 17:47

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Leszek (Post 2993587)
Indeed but sadly I've made the wrong choice. The job I took did not work out. Now there's a dry season again :( though job ads started to fill the boards. Nonetheless most often when I get to the finals the renumeration does not match my expectations. I don't aim too high, I hope, but earning < 100k is below what I consider good enough to continue working in Switzerland.

I understand. I hope things work out for you soon. I have had the weirdest experience this time around with interview processes and when I least expected it something worked out. No job is perfect but it definitely helps to feel "valued" again.

Good luck with the search and I agree: Having time off could be a blessing.

Treverus 20.09.2018 18:00

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kedi (Post 2993629)
I understand. I hope things work out for you soon. I have had the weirdest experience this time around with interview processes and when I least expected it something worked out. No job is perfect but it definitely helps to feel "valued" again.

Good luck with the search and I agree: Having time off could be a blessing.

I never manage to make that work. Every time do I tell me that next time round I wont get stressed... but I just hate sitting at home reading job ads... and it seems to get worse as in the past I only had to battle with incompetent HR interns... these days you have to battle with terrible IT systems build to meet the requirements written by incompetent HR interns.

Phil_MCR 20.09.2018 18:34

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2993573)
But that's rarely happening in Switzerland, isn't it? In other EU countries do you get a year or so because the labour laws make the employers do it... not because they like to blow money on you.

Well, I know someone who just got under 2 years of pay on being made redundant in Basel. Since there's no law compelling the employer to do that, it seems that some companies do decide to blow money on you.

Treverus 20.09.2018 19:53

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_MCR (Post 2993644)
Well, I know someone who just got under 2 years of pay on being made redundant in Basel. Since there's no law compelling the employer to do that, it seems that some companies do decide to blow money on you.

I have never witnessed a company doing this without legal obligation unless we are talking about senior management... I'd totally be up for getting paid 24 months for no reason.

Kedi 20.09.2018 22:13

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2993635)
I never manage to make that work. Every time do I tell me that next time round I wont get stressed... but I just hate sitting at home reading job ads... and it seems to get worse as in the past I only had to battle with incompetent HR interns... these days you have to battle with terrible IT systems build to meet the requirements written by incompetent HR interns.

I completely sympathize. I have changed countries twice and am onto my 10th job. Each time I am unemployed (I tend to quit a job/change country before a new job is secured), I tell myself I will take time off and enjoy the luxury of having time myself but after a couple of weeks I start panicking.

This last time though, I did much better and enjoyed being my own boss. I am getting better at this :)

Having said that I am not sure if I can do this quitting a job before finding a new one thing again: I had a good response to my applications and had quite a few interviews but I felt I was being strung along with no intention of hiring or being used as "interview practice". I also have the feeling I represent a rare species in my area (SW Engineering) due to my gender, age and nationality and I might be invited for curiosity's sake. Hard to believe but I don't know how else to interpret my most recent job searching experience!

Tox_Rat 20.09.2018 23:27

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2993635)
... these days you have to battle with terrible IT systems build to meet the requirements written by incompetent HR interns.

I was never sure which was more annoying about being unemployed, this or the crazily unspecific job titles in the listings. If an employer is searching for a microbiologist with experience in microbiome genomic sequencing, then that should be the headline, not 'Scientist'. Crazily unspecific job titles like that are invariably followed by 4 pages about how fabulous the company is, before finally letting the reader know in the final paragraph that what they are looking for is an astrophysicist postdoc with a commercial driver's license and Oracle MySQL database management experience. :msnsarcastic: Moreover, none of the latter information is indexed with the listing site, so it is always completely unsearchable. Colossal waste of time....

ITguy 20.09.2018 23:53

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2993676)
I have never witnessed a company doing this without legal obligation unless we are talking about senior management... I'd totally be up for getting paid 24 months for no reason.

I have seen this happening with the companies who would like to protect their brand value and their ranking in the HR global/regional list. I know of a company (American multinational) in Switzerland that did the same and paid a month of salary for every 1.5 years of service and many many people got handsome sums. They paid it to all employees, management or non management, alike.
There is no compulsion for them to do this but they don't want bad press as that compromises their competitiveness in the market/business area.

Phil_MCR 21.09.2018 00:14

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2993676)
I have never witnessed a company doing this without legal obligation unless we are talking about senior management... I'd totally be up for getting paid 24 months for no reason.

you probably only worked for banks :msntongue:

Gramatyka356 21.09.2018 18:22

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kedi (Post 2993723)
I completely sympathize. I have changed countries twice and am onto my 10th job. Each time I am unemployed (I tend to quit a job/change country before a new job is secured), I tell myself I will take time off and enjoy the luxury of having time myself but after a couple of weeks I start panicking.

I also used to do it, taking breaks. But then there was always a handful of jobs round the corner. It still holds true for EU but not so much about Switzerland.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kedi (Post 2993723)
Having said that I am not sure if I can do this quitting a job before finding a new one thing again: I had a good response to my applications and had quite a few interviews but I felt I was being strung along with no intention of hiring or being used as "interview practice". I also have the feeling I represent a rare species in my area (SW Engineering) due to my gender, age and nationality and I might be invited for curiosity's sake. Hard to believe but I don't know how else to interpret my most recent job searching experience!

Once, I suddenly wasn't feeling well in the morning, spend x minutes in the bathroom, missed the train and the interview. I told the recruiter what happened, then I heard back that the company don't care, won't schedule another appointment, as they already have a very good candidate but they were willing to interview me as I appeared to have lower salary expectations. I hadn't spoken about any numbers with them before so it was a really puzzling message.

JoshWilliams 22.09.2018 00:04

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Today only (Post 2951300)
Schneider had been their now for nearly 18 months, looking and deciding what to do and he is now moving.
Short term and Nestle don't go hand in hand, Nestle have never been one to look for short term gains over long term investements and i am sure when Schneider was appointed, this was one of the reasons he got the job, despite comming from a non food background, that he was not just looking for short term benefits.

Schneider comes from pharmaceutical business experience and strangely enough yesterday he announced he wants to dismiss Nestlé Skin Health (aka Galderma) within a year or so, that is the pharma branch of the group based in Lausanne. This is a sudden and drastic U-turn with respect to Paul Bulcke's long term strategy for that sector (new to Nestlé in fact). IMHO Schneider is just desperate for short term cash because he's under pressure from Loeb and other private investors, and he's handling it in a questionable, classic, simplistic and extremely conservative way. Global market dynamics won't help him in the mid-long term I'm afraid.

Tox_Rat 22.09.2018 01:15

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshWilliams (Post 2994189)
Schneider comes from pharmaceutical business experience and strangely enough yesterday he announced he wants to dismiss Nestlé Skin Health (aka Galderma) within a year or so, that is the pharma branch of the group based in Lausanne. This is a sudden and drastic U-turn with respect to Paul Bulcke's long term strategy for that sector (new to Nestlé in fact). IMHO Schneider is just desperate for short term cash because he's under pressure from Loeb and other private investors, and he's handling it in a questionable, classic, simplistic and extremely conservative way. Global market dynamics won't help him in the mid-long term I'm afraid.

Well technically Skin Health was sunscreens, lotions etc, while Galderma (which was kind of already dead after they gutted the site at Sophia Antopolis) is topical prescription meds before they dumped them together. From the outset, Nestle Skin Health has been somewhat artificially assembled from various IP, pieces of acquisitions, and co-development projects with cosmetics companies. NSH never fit in with the rest of Nestle business, Nestle centralized structures, or even was part of the same regulatory environments as the rest of Nestle businesses. Nor did there seem to be a coherent strategy for the integration of all of its various pieces into one complete unit. I'm not surprised that they are getting rid of it and really just wonder why it took them so long after the Inneov partnership with Loreal died. Frankly, it will be better for these NSH businesses to be a part of an organization that can use and value them, though I realize that some people will probably not make that transition.

I don't, however, read this as a sudden U-turn in Bulcke's Nutrition, Health and Wellness strategy. If that were changing, they wouldn't be buying up e.g. herbal supplement companies in the US. I just think they are choosing to focus on moving into areas where they have more translatable experience, rather than trying to bridge into the dermal cosmetics/pharma industries. Loeb is definitely pushing to streamline the company and generate cash, as he is after all a corporate raider. However in this case, I'm not so sure that the sale is primarily or completely motivated by a need to generate liquidity versus other factors. If Schneider can keep Loeb happy at the same time, then that's a bonus.

Today only 22.09.2018 08:58

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Paul Bulcke didn't have a long term strategy, he just followed what Peter Brabeck told him to do.;)


Nestle have undoubtedly got very bloated over the last 10 years and it was evident that Schneider was brought it to sort it out.


The NEST museum by the railway station reputedly cost over Chf 57mio, it as a Brabeck/Bulcke vanity project and is losing money big time, problem is not much they can do with it......

JoshWilliams 22.09.2018 09:57

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tox_Rat (Post 2994207)
I don't, however, read this as a sudden U-turn in Bulcke's Nutrition, Health and Wellness strategy.

Interest of Nestlé in pharma dates back to 1977 when they purchased the US eyecare company Alcon. This was then sold to Novartis in 2010 because Brabeck wanted to concentrate on medical nutrition in a more convincing and strategically structured way:

“The combination of health economics, changing demographics and advances in health science show that our existing healthcare systems . . . are not sustainable and need redesigning,” said Peter Brabeck, chairman, a key backer of the Swiss group’s push into nutrition.
Source: https://www.ft.com/content/dfa59814-...8-00144feab49a

When Galderma was acquired in 2014:

“With this deal we have acquired key strategic assets to extend Nestlé’s activities in the field of specialised, medical skin treatments, providing consumers with life-enhancing scientific products,” said Nestlé Chairman Peter Brabeck-Letmathe.

“This move will reinforce Galderma’s leading position in the industry when it becomes Nestlé Skin Health by allowing it to complete its geographic footprint for its strong portfolio of brands and leading medical solutions globally,” said Nestlé Chief Executive Paul Bulcke.
Source: https://www.nestle.com/media/pressre...atology-assets

And by the way integration of GxP needs with the rest of Nestlé GLOBE IT infrastructure is at fairly advanced state according to web searches.
E.g. : https://nestle.taleo.net/careersecti...000484&lang=en

Will they stop working on that after this announcement throwing away all the money already spent? Frankly no idea.

Mikers 17.10.2018 22:12

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romandeee
 
We’re now near the end of this long road and the effects and paths in people’s lives are becoming clearer. Everyone has been given a departure date ranging from a few months to two years and the redundancy plans are clear.

The overwhelming feeling that it left is no longer anger or fighting spirit but sadness. We worked together for many years and we will all splinter out into our new career paths. Friendships will dissipate, while work may continue.

Nestle will reform around a new IT operating model, with a thin layer in Switzerland and to-be-confirmed resources in other locations (not just Barcelona and Milan but also the US and Asian regions).

Will it work ? Depends on what you mean ‘work’. The company will not fail, big Corp IT does not just fall over abruptly so service will continue, but will it transitoin nestle into an Agile Product based model allowing it to compete with startups but using its size advantage ? I’m not sure it will. Switzerland has changed, but the remainder of the world remains the same, with the same staff and the same existing mindsets. I still think the bottom line on IT spend will be similar a couple of years from now, with staff savings being offset by external consultant hire due to lack of local skill. However my view is not neutral, even if I think it is, because I am being dismissed.

I will leave nestle shortly, starting a new position at another company. There is a need for IT specialists within Switzerland, a recent report on swissinfo from McKinsey said they expected a significant shortage in the coming years as the next Industrial Revolution takes hold. So if you’re company, big or small, restructures and you face the unknown, don’t be scared: there is still a lot of work to be done, before robots do all our work for us.

Odile 17.10.2018 23:58

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Bonne chance Mikers.

Tox_Rat 18.10.2018 00:11

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romandeee
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikers (Post 3003663)
Will it transitoin nestle into an Agile Product based model allowing it to compete with startups but using its size advantage ? I’m not sure it will.

Yeah, somehow I doubt it too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikers (Post 3003663)
I still think the bottom line on IT spend will be similar a couple of years from now, with staff savings being offset by external consultant hire due to lack of local skill.

If it is any comfort, I think you are probably right. However, save some pity for the rest of the non IT employees left behind that have to deal with the ensuing IT mess.

naza 18.10.2018 12:22

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romandeee
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikers (Post 3003663)
We’re now near the end of this long road and the effects and paths in people’s lives are becoming clearer. Everyone has been given a departure date ranging from a few months to two years and the redundancy plans are clear.

The overwhelming feeling that it left is no longer anger or fighting spirit but sadness. We worked together for many years and we will all splinter out into our new career paths. Friendships will dissipate, while work may continue.

Nestle will reform around a new IT operating model, with a thin layer in Switzerland and to-be-confirmed resources in other locations (not just Barcelona and Milan but also the US and Asian regions).

Will it work ? Depends on what you mean ‘work’. The company will not fail, big Corp IT does not just fall over abruptly so service will continue, but will it transitoin nestle into an Agile Product based model allowing it to compete with startups but using its size advantage ? I’m not sure it will. Switzerland has changed, but the remainder of the world remains the same, with the same staff and the same existing mindsets. I still think the bottom line on IT spend will be similar a couple of years from now, with staff savings being offset by external consultant hire due to lack of local skill. However my view is not neutral, even if I think it is, because I am being dismissed.

I will leave nestle shortly, starting a new position at another company. There is a need for IT specialists within Switzerland, a recent report on swissinfo from McKinsey said they expected a significant shortage in the coming years as the next Industrial Revolution takes hold. So if you’re company, big or small, restructures and you face the unknown, don’t be scared: there is still a lot of work to be done, before robots do all our work for us.

Went through the exact same situation a few years ago and you've en-capsuled the journey perfectly. Most if not all of my teammates found jobs and in most cases jobs with more responsibility and pay. the team spirit however was lost, the nostalgia remains and we still meet form time to time for a few beers or the occasional bbq

as for the company, the CIO that was brought in to implement the new IT Operating Model is no longer the CIO but he came in with a mandate/mission and accomplished it so good for him. the "internal customers" i.e. users with whom I've stayed in touch with also moved on but recall with fondness the support, banter, tension but above all partnership they had with IT that they no longer have with Wipro and Accenture... circle of life I guess

Best of luck to you Mikers and I'm sure with your positive attitude you'll be more than fine

JoshWilliams 21.10.2018 22:37

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romandeee
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikers (Post 3003663)
Nestle will reform around a new IT operating model, with a thin layer in Switzerland and to-be-confirmed resources in other locations (not just Barcelona and Milan but also the US and Asian regions).

Good to know you found something, Mikers. By the way, I was in touch with a couple of contractors working in SAP teams in Vevey and surprisingly they are still there, with good chances to see their extensions rolling into 2019. And they told me of several other cases of contractors still working there. Shocking to see how this is allowed in Switzerland: I also went through a similar process in UK years back but all contractors were terminated upfront.
Not to mention Indian consultants from IBM, TechMahindra and Wipro: why are they still onsite in Switzerland if the company is delocalizing their own internals abroad? Puzzling Labour law here, looks like there multinationals can do whatever they want with permanent employees.

Mikers 21.10.2018 23:27

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romandeee
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshWilliams (Post 3004881)
Good to know you found something, Mikers. By the way, I was in touch with a couple of contractors working in SAP teams in Vevey and surprisingly they are still there, with good chances to see their extensions rolling into 2019. And they told me of several other cases of contractors still working there. Shocking to see how this is allowed in Switzerland: I also went through a similar process in UK years back but all contractors were terminated upfront.
Not to mention Indian consultants from IBM, TechMahindra and Wipro: why are they still onsite in Switzerland if the company is delocalizing their own internals abroad? Puzzling Labour law here, looks like there multinationals can do whatever they want with permanent employees.

I am confident many, nearly all, contractors and consultants will be there q1 next year. I think for the next 12 months you’d have a good chance as an external. The internals have largely lost all motivation - everyone is being sacked - so I think 2019 will be pretty terrible there.

Gramatyka356 22.10.2018 08:10

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romandeee
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshWilliams (Post 3004881)
Puzzling Labour law here, looks like there multinationals can do whatever they want with permanent employees.

Very true. Lesson learned by experience. Nowadays when someone asks me for advice about an offer from Switzerland I always point out the poor labor law. Thinking in terms of any EU labor law the Swiss permanent contract is nothing more than a cheaper (hourly) contract. Employer can fire you at any time without any reason. It's like being in probation period all the time. The only advantage of permanent contract is the 1 or 2 months of notice period which is not much when you have to move with your family.

Treverus 22.10.2018 10:07

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romandeee
 
I always get goosebumps when I read bullshit like this: Agile requires competent and empowered engineers. Because the model is bottoms up: its the engineers who come up with great ideas, discuss them internally and then develop a product roadmap. The engineers decide among each other who is doing what and when. That's why start ups hire the brightest and most expensive engineers in silicon valley. Trying to achieve the same with the cheapest outsourcing partner who has people on the other side of the planet who neither know and understand your business or have the mandate to take any decisions on their own is just insane.

I know this because I have tried to work in an agile mode with an off-shore team in India. We got work done but it did not meet my definition of agile in any way. I essentially told them what to do and the team leader broke down the tasks and assigned them.

I am currently working "agile" in a government institution which literally translated to still do everything top down as in the last decades, but use the agile template of TFS instead of the waterfall one...

I understand that for many companies IT is basically viewed as a cost factor. And that when they need to cut costs they start there as it does not impact the core business in the short run very much. But Id love them to be honest about it... trying to achieve a similar service level but save money is totally ok. But the moment you tell me that you on top will also become way more efficient and better in every way... you instantly lose any credibility.

JoshWilliams 22.10.2018 10:32

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romandeee
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 3004932)
I know this because I have tried to work in an agile mode with an off-shore team in India. We got work done but it did not meet my definition of agile in any way. I essentially told them what to do and the team leader broke down the tasks and assigned them.

Same thing here. Some of them are hard workers (less and less by the way) but you need to tell them what to do in every little detail and they still won't deliver first-time-right solutions so you always need to plan several extra days of onshore functional testing to debug the whole thing and make it usable. I can hire a single local engineer here in Europe and he/she will self-sufficiently deliver higher quality solutions in less time, matching the work of a team of four offshore resources, saving 50% of costs. This crap has been going on for 15+ years, but offshore companies are also becoming more expensive. IBM India is in structural decline having their best resources absorbed by other companies like Accenture, offering 75% pay increase. Which of course reflects on higher costs for client companies in EU and US.

Gramatyka356 22.10.2018 10:43

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romandeee
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 3004932)
I always get goosebumps when I read bullshit like this: Agile requires competent and empowered engineers. Because the model is bottoms up: its the engineers who come up with great ideas, discuss them internally and then develop a product roadmap. The engineers decide among each other who is doing what and when.

That's why Uncle Bob boldly admitted that Agile is dead. Management doesn't want engineers to decide! The corporate version of Agile starts somewhere at the lower level of management ladders but engineers are workers, they should do what they are told to. I've been to few places and it's always the same, constant battle about what agile actually is. In the end, management has the power.

Treverus 22.10.2018 11:38

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romandeee
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gramatyka356 (Post 3004947)
That's why Uncle Bob boldly admitted that Agile is dead. Management doesn't want engineers to decide! The corporate version of Agile starts somewhere at the lower level of management ladders but engineers are workers, they should do what they are told to. I've been to few places and it's always the same, constant battle about what agile actually is. In the end, management has the power.

Well, then try to convince any IT manager in 2018 to NOT use agile. Many have not the slightest clue how it is supposed to be working and what up and downsides it comes with but one thing I have witnessed is that "Are we agile?" is by now a standard question from the top management and we all have to pretend we are...

Chuff 22.10.2018 11:45

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romandeee
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 3004978)
Well, then try to convince any IT manager in 2018 to NOT use agile. Many have not the slightest clue how it is supposed to be working and what up and downsides it comes with but one thing I have witnessed is that "Are we agile?" is by now a standard question from the top management and we all have to pretend we are...

100% agree with this. Agile is the current buzzword both inside and outside of IT and management are trying to apply it to whatever they think is feasible. In my experience so far Agile is a largely meaningless term that causes confusion and results in a degradation of organisational performance and employee satisfaction.

I will try and be more optimistic about it as our company rolls it out wholesale.

Treverus 22.10.2018 12:14

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romandeee
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuff (Post 3004984)
100% agree with this. Agile is the current buzzword both inside and outside of IT and management are trying to apply it to whatever they think is feasible. In my experience so far Agile is a largely meaningless term that causes confusion and results in a degradation of organisational performance and employee satisfaction.

I will try and be more optimistic about it as our company rolls it out wholesale.



Just to be clear: I am in no way against an agile methodology. With the right setting is it in my opinion the best way to work. Especially in order to achieve results quickly in a fast changing environment. My problem is just that this way of working requires
- highly skilled and trained staff
- a work culture that is very different from the typical large European company (it is really a start-up way of working...)
- a management that actually understands the methodology... including the downsides, for example the lack of a fully committed set of deliverables to a specific deadline.


The world isn't perfect and I have seen it somehow working with one of the three points not in place properly... but if you are missing half or more of the prerequisites are you set up to fail.

Gramatyka356 22.10.2018 12:33

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romandeee
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 3004978)
Well, then try to convince any IT manager in 2018 to NOT use agile. Many have not the slightest clue how it is supposed to be working and what up and downsides it comes with but one thing I have witnessed is that "Are we agile?" is by now a standard question from the top management and we all have to pretend we are...

Let me rephrase myself. In recent years the corporate bureaucracy hijacked the term Agile. It is nothing more but a micromanagement focusing on fast delivery. Engineers should just listen to the stake holders and execute. There's no place for bottom-up. Agile is dead. The new praised Agile, with official guidelines, certifications, buzzwords is an excellent solution to make engineers forget about their rights and value. In the new Agile no engineer can complain about being micromanaged, undervalued, bullied, pressed to the extreme.

I like the original Agile too! With the new Agile, I can manage well. I regret however that there's no career option. You have to take more and more responsibilities but you are just an engineer. Everyone in the team is just an engineer. Doesn't matter that someone has 10+ years of experience, good education, etc. but other teammate has no education and just started some scripting. In the Waterfall at least you clearly got up as an engineer if you are valuable.

Gramatyka356 25.10.2018 09:32

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Our sensei posted an article about the faux-agile praised by the IT industry.

https://martinfowler.com/articles/agile-aus-2018.html

Our challenge at the moment isn't making agile a thing that people want to do, it's dealing with what I call faux-agile: agile that's just the name, but none of the practices and values in place. Ron Jeffries often refers to it as "Dark Agile", or specifically "Dark Scrum". This is actually even worse than just pretending to do agile, it's actively using the name "agile" against the basic principles of what we were trying to do, when we talked about doing this kind of work in the late 90s and at Snowbird.

yacek 25.10.2018 20:02

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
There are two kinds of IT companies:
- companies where engineers talk mostly about the process, and
- companies where the engineers talk mostly about the product and technology.

Gramatyka356 25.10.2018 22:04

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by yacek (Post 3006242)
There are two kinds of IT companies:
- companies where engineers talk mostly about the process, and
- companies where the engineers talk mostly about the product and technology.

When the process is there to shut your mouth you talk about the process to be allowed to enjoy talking about the product (be included), agree?

EDIT:
One funny true story I have heard from a depressed IT manager. "The problem with managing software engineers is that they are not ordinary workers who should be happy to have a steady job, a bowl of rice every day and a peaceful steady life.They are the most clever brains in the organization and they know that."


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