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Old 02.09.2018, 10:00
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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I see it where I work, a sea of grey haired people, half of whom have been there for donkeys years, and could be replaced by lower cost, higher performing people.
Out of interest, how do you know the grey haired people are not performing?

And why would the younger ones - with less experience - be so much better?
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Old 02.09.2018, 10:48
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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Out of interest, how do you know the grey haired people are not performing?

And why would the younger ones - with less experience - be so much better?
I have to work with a lot of them, and I can see it, I experience it everyday.

They, including me, have a lot of experience, and 'do the do', but when in meetings with the remote sites, you can also see they are way ahead in innovation, new technologies, enthusiasm etc.
All in vogue topics with the company, with any company on the global stage.

Older people, in general, don't want to be part of the evolution, don't want to be on 'death march' projects, don't want to do the overtime etc.

They've done it all before.

Don't get me wrong, obviously just because someone is getting on a bit doesn't mean they can't walk the walk and embrace 'the new'.
But 30+ years doing the same sh1te takes the gloss of it.

I'm talking from a corporate perspective, and IT.

And now I have to walk the dog!
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  #43  
Old 02.09.2018, 13:02
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

Younger ones certainly are far cheaper, the problem arises when something goes wrong and you then need the experienced ones to sort it out.


It's very short sighted to get rid of experience !


From what i understand in Nestle, morale is very low currently, a lot of good people have already left or been offered jobs elsewhere and left is a demoralized second class workforce not knowing whether they have a job or not at the end of the week.
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  #44  
Old 02.09.2018, 13:17
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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I have to work with a lot of them, and I can see it, I experience it everyday.

They, including me, have a lot of experience, and 'do the do', but when in meetings with the remote sites, you can also see they are way ahead in innovation, new technologies, enthusiasm etc.
All in vogue topics with the company, with any company on the global stage.

Older people, in general, don't want to be part of the evolution, don't want to be on 'death march' projects, don't want to do the overtime etc.

They've done it all before.

Don't get me wrong, obviously just because someone is getting on a bit doesn't mean they can't walk the walk and embrace 'the new'.
But 30+ years doing the same sh1te takes the gloss of it.

I'm talking from a corporate perspective, and IT.

And now I have to walk the dog!
And this is what nestle hopes to achieve here. Getting rid of old expensive employees and replacing them with younger, more energetic and of course lower cost ones.

Itís a very interesting and philosophical argument. There are many walks of life where the energy and enthusiasm of the younger generation is a must have, however there are other (think something like having a joint replacement, or other surgery) where your first question isnít how energetic and enthusiastic the doctor is but normally what experience do they have.

If nestle get this right and end up with a low cost high performance workforce in Spain and Italy then hats off to them, but it is considerable risk. We are already massively outsourced and those outsourced staff are normally young, energetic people however they still need direction and guidance from a few people who have been round the block. Itís how many of those you still need thatís the question.

The other key point is itís not just employees that are he subject here, itís the technology. 10years ago IT was very different to what it is now, and will be transformed again in 10years time. What may have cost 150k in 2008 May now not require as much brilliance and has become commodity in which case it would not commend such a premium salary, however new areas may even charge more than before.

Amidst the mixture of feelings that occur when these kind of things occur itís often said that salaries like those at nestle are too high for IT, but do keep in mind what the Swiss piece of nestle IT is doing. It is not help desk or even support, it is the landscape design for 350,000 people spread fully across the globe.

While it can be said this is easily done from low cost locations, keep some common human behavior in mind: if I can earn 35000 euros Doing this in Spain and am a young person with bags of talent and can happily design global solutions for global companies, and this skill will earn m 135,000 euroís if I move country, to Switzerland, London, Frankfurt or Paris, then why would I stay in Spain ? Employee attrition is not generally a problem In Switzerland because the pay keeps people at the company. At lower cost locations if you are offered 5k more from the company next door you might take it and thatís a risk, because it takes a long time to learn the landscape of any huge company.

Anyway, itís an interesting time in IT globally, There are many views and opinions on where we will be 10 years from now.
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  #45  
Old 02.09.2018, 16:10
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

It's a balancing act.

I think the management still see IT as an expense and a commodity, that can go to the cheapest reputable suppliers.
I've friends who have moved from IT and into 'the business', and they report that the business really do not give a flying feck about who is delivering their IT.

As an aside, my company has IT in Madrid, no issues with staff retention, nor quality.
Same for Poland and Hungary.

It's a different matter with the outsource companies and contractors, but who really cares?
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Old 02.09.2018, 16:44
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

I did some consultancy work about 15 years ago for a large retail company. What I pointed out to management was that they were haemorrhaging detailed knowledge of the software underpinning their business.

The issue was thus:

Developers were, in the offshore culture, on the lowest rung of the ladder. Therefore, anyone who was any good would eventually move into more business analysis work, or into management, being driven by the desire for more money and not being treated quite so much as scum. That meant, by and large, that the most able developers had around 2 years experience. If a developer had more than that, then the chances were high that they hadn't moved on due to not being very good.

The result was that for any development more than about 4 years old, there simply were no competent people around who had technical knowledge of it. To me, this is the IT equivalent of senility. Important information and know-how - the IT wisdom of the company, if you will - is lost. It is massively more expensive to have to figure out how some oldish suite of programs works from scratch, than to have at least some continuity of workforce.

Btw - documentation and handovers are myths invented to make managers feel more secure. They're very rarely of any help.

I've had cause to work on programs I developed over 10 years earlier. Sure, I don't remember all the details, but the overall shape of it is retained, and I'm up to speed very quickly.

Employing young bright things at nice low wages is all very well, but as soon as they've got some experience - they'll be off. The company's senility issue remains.
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Old 02.09.2018, 18:32
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

Being offshored to Barcelona is not so bad. There are worse places that you could go.
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Old 02.09.2018, 18:51
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

Their yoghurt is really crap as well.
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Old 02.09.2018, 19:26
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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Being offshored to Barcelona is not so bad. There are worse places that you could go.
For the singles or married renters this is indeed true. With many of us having children in local schools and having bought a house or apartment and be part of our local villages then itís not as straightforward.
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Old 02.09.2018, 19:42
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

Property prices are already falling in the area, wait another couple of years and we'll be down 10-15% is my guess.


Second hand Volvo's will also be abundant too (favoured car of Nescafs)
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Old 02.09.2018, 20:57
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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Developers were, in the offshore culture, on the lowest rung of the ladder. Therefore, anyone who was any good would eventually move into more business analysis work, or into management, being driven by the desire for more money and not being treated quite so much as scum. That meant, by and large, that the most able developers had around 2 years experience. If a developer had more than that, then the chances were high that they hadn't moved on due to not being very good.
I hope what you mean here is that what you say in the later sentences holds for the countries in the first sentence of this paragraph. Because in my experience, people who move onto business analysis from software development are those who are not very good developers and who cannot cope with the difficulty of both understanding the business requirement and correctly implementing a software solution for it.

Last edited by Kedi; 02.09.2018 at 21:08.
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Old 11.09.2018, 07:17
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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From what i understand in Nestle, morale is very low currently, a lot of good people have already left or been offered jobs elsewhere and left is a demoralized second class workforce not knowing whether they have a job or not at the end of the week.
This story is now three months old but nobody reported having being actually fired so far. Are they also getting rid of SAP teams in Plan-Dessus? And what about team leads, will they keep on managing near- and offshore consultants via Skype?
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  #53  
Old 14.09.2018, 19:20
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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This story is now three months old but nobody reported having being actually fired so far. Are they also getting rid of SAP teams in Plan-Dessus? And what about team leads, will they keep on managing near- and offshore consultants via Skype?
Hello. We have been in the employee consultation period which ended a couple of weeks ago. During this period nestle modified their plan so that 150 will stay not 100, this was in the news.

Now we are crunch time. Next week all affected employees will have their 1:2:1 with hr and be told when they will be dismissed. However much you prepare or are confident this will be horrIble and will hurt. The future will then Be concrete: we will know , myself included, when I am dismissed as an actual date.

Regarding who will stay most are out. It does t matter if it’s leads, design, sap or skype everyone is being kicked out with exception of the chosen few who are mainly the very senior leads who led us into this mess and are now suddenly seen as the best bet to get us out, which personally i think is wrong they should go down with the ship.

Jobs in Barcelona and Italy will provide the replacement workforce for us as is publicly known.
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Old 14.09.2018, 21:26
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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I'm talking from a corporate perspective, and IT.
If you're young and doing IT in a non-IT company it basically means you're not really good in IT. If you were, you would be in Google. So, my advice is, listen more, learn more and get as much as possible out from the guys with experience. It will help you very very soon
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Old 14.09.2018, 21:48
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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If you're young and doing IT in a non-IT company it basically means you're not really good in IT. If you were, you would be in Google. So, my advice is, listen more, learn more and get as much as possible out from the guys with experience. It will help you very very soon
I really think you have some more learning to do here yourself. Many IT companies are low skill - take avanade, Accenture, wipro, techm for pure It companies renowned for having lower skilled employees. Take any number of non IT firms and look at their staff and you have some of the best in the business. Classic examples such as investment banks, law firms, multinationals of any discipline have highly talented people of all ages. It’s slightly naive to use google as an example, it would rather be like saying your a bit thick if you didn’t go to oxford or Cambridge.
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Old 14.09.2018, 22:27
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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Itís slightly naive to use google as an example
naive?! Really
If you're good, you're in google for 300k starting. If you're average you're in accenture for 150k and if you're below average you're in corporate for <120k starting.
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Old 14.09.2018, 22:57
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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naive?! Really
If you're good, you're in google for 300k starting. If you're average you're in accenture for 150k and if you're below average you're in corporate for <120k starting.
Something I really like about the internet is itís persistent. I hope EF makes it forward another 10 years and beyond and you will have the opportunity to look back at the things you say when you are at the different stages of life.

If you are at google on tonnes of wedge very well done to you and thatís genuinely meant - it is a select and very very talented set of people that work there.
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Old 15.09.2018, 08:30
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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naive?! Really
Oh yes. And a bit ignorant as well.
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If you're good, you're in google for 300k starting. If you're average you're in accenture for 150k and if you're below average you're in corporate for <120k starting.


I've worked with Accenture consultants (and other Big 4 or 5) for the past 20 years. Average is something generally way beyond their capabities.

And I know many people in corporate abd not even in management who are on way over 120k.
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Old 18.09.2018, 22:15
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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Now we are crunch time. Next week all affected employees will have their 1:2:1 with hr and be told when they will be dismissed. However much you prepare or are confident this will be horrIble and will hurt. The future will then Be concrete: we will know , myself included, when I am dismissed as an actual date.
Regarding who will stay most are out. It does t matter if itís leads, design, sap or skype everyone is being kicked out with exception of the chosen few who are mainly the very senior leads who led us into this mess and are now suddenly seen as the best bet to get us out, which personally i think is wrong they should go down with the ship.
Sorry to hear that mate, did not intend to excruciate (been through something similar myself ages ago). Fingers crossed you'll be graced, anyway you'll survive and indeed these things suck because it's all down to those years and years of crazy spending done by a bunch of dumb managers who don't give a sh*t about delivering actual solutions, just talking disrupting fantasy visions all the time. These are the kings of costly IT and their longevity is proverbial.
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Old 19.09.2018, 07:49
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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Hello. We have been in the employee consultation period which ended a couple of weeks ago. During this period nestle modified their plan so that 150 will stay not 100, this was in the news.

Now we are crunch time. Next week all affected employees will have their 1:2:1 with hr and be told when they will be dismissed. However much you prepare or are confident this will be horrIble and will hurt. The future will then Be concrete: we will know , myself included, when I am dismissed as an actual date.

Regarding who will stay most are out. It does t matter if it’s leads, design, sap or skype everyone is being kicked out with exception of the chosen few who are mainly the very senior leads who led us into this mess and are now suddenly seen as the best bet to get us out, which personally i think is wrong they should go down with the ship.

Jobs in Barcelona and Italy will provide the replacement workforce for us as is publicly known.
Sorry to hear that mate, it is tough as hell when a company decides to do this and I have a feeling that it's a shorter-term strategy than many companies realise, because as other companies begin to flock to the "cheaper" countries then as a result the average salary and job opportunities rise in those countries, meaning higher staff turnover as well as steadily increasing costs.

If many Swiss companies had actually budgeted sensibly in the last couple of decades instead of spending willy-nilly then it may not have ever been needed on this scale, but that is speculation on my part.

Anyway, I wish you luck for the future.

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If you're young and doing IT in a non-IT company it basically means you're not really good in IT. If you were, you would be in Google. So, my advice is, listen more, learn more and get as much as possible out from the guys with experience. It will help you very very soon
You're truly a hilariously arrogant twit, with, I am guessing from the level of emotional intelligence on display, a touch of aspergers.

Last edited by Richdog; 19.09.2018 at 11:22.
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