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Old 19.09.2018, 08:30
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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naive?! Really
If you're good, you're in google for 300k starting. If you're average you're in accenture for 150k and if you're below average you're in corporate for <120k starting.
This is so stupid. There are +100k of people in IT, and Google hires 2% of them. You're saying that 98% are average?
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Old 19.09.2018, 09:14
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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If you're young and doing IT in a non-IT company it basically means you're not really good in IT. If you were, you would be in Google. So, my advice is, listen more, learn more and get as much as possible out from the guys with experience. It will help you very very soon
ah bless you, I'm sure you'll be at google once you finish uni in a couple of years
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  #63  
Old 19.09.2018, 10:49
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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ah bless you, I'm sure you'll be at google once you finish uni in a couple of years

You've got that the wrong way round my friend, he'll be at Uni once he's finished up with Google


(again, serving at the staff canteen)
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  #64  
Old 19.09.2018, 12:16
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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If you're young and doing IT in a non-IT company it basically means you're not really good in IT. If you were, you would be in Google. So, my advice is, listen more, learn more and get as much as possible out from the guys with experience. It will help you very very soon
You don't work at Google: you wouldn't be allowed to post such rubbish.
They're very touchy about brand perception.

You can have that attitude privately: the attitude is exactly why very good IT people don't want to work at Google.

I know people there who don't like it at all but they're trapped because of the salary despite the lack of work/life balance and other trappings of normalcy.
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  #65  
Old 19.09.2018, 12:28
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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You don't work at Google: you wouldn't be allowed to post such rubbish.
They're very touchy about brand perception.

You can have that attitude privately: the attitude is exactly why very good IT people don't want to work at Google.

I know people there who don't like it at all but they're trapped because of the salary despite the lack of work/life balance and other trappings of normalcy.
i agree with the majority of your post but no-one is 'trapped' because a salary... it is fully someone's choice to work there and in the end they have to decide what their own priorities are.
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  #66  
Old 19.09.2018, 12:50
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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You don't work at Google: you wouldn't be allowed to post such rubbish.
You can have that attitude privately: the attitude is exactly why very good IT people don't want to work at Google.
I know very good IT people (some of them brilliant) who love working at Google.

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they're trapped because of the salary despite the lack of work/life balance and other trappings of normalcy.
I'd say that the work / life balance is not worse than the average Swiss company. And the Googlers have a lot of perks (and much bigger salary, of course).
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  #67  
Old 19.09.2018, 12:51
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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i agree with the majority of your post but no-one is 'trapped' because a salary... it is fully someone's choice to work there and in the end they have to decide what their own priorities are.
I mean trapped in the sense of they live within the superior salary (bigger apartment, whizzy car lease, etc) and can't accept downgrading.

Yes it's their choice, but humans are irrational meatsacks who back ourselves into corners all too readily...
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  #68  
Old 19.09.2018, 12:57
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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I mean trapped in the sense of they live within the superior salary (bigger apartment, whizzy car lease, etc) and can't accept downgrading.

Yes it's their choice, but humans are irrational meatsacks who back ourselves into corners all too readily...
Ok then let me revise my statement to: "I feel zero sympathy for anyone in that situation".

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Out of interest, how do you know the grey haired people are not performing?

And why would the younger ones - with less experience - be so much better?
Just seen this. I think (and I speak objectively here) that this is a problem that a fair few Swiss companies suffer from with regards to some middle-aged staff who have been there for decades. Reduced drive and performance and unwillingness to change, basically by their own admission waiting out their retirement and in doing so blocking promotion chances for younger staff.

Obviously this is not the case for everyone, but it is definitely a reality.
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  #69  
Old 19.09.2018, 16:59
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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Ok then let me revise my statement to: "I feel zero sympathy for anyone in that situation".



Just seen this. I think (and I speak objectively here) that this is a problem that a fair few Swiss companies suffer from with regards to some middle-aged staff who have been there for decades. Reduced drive and performance and unwillingness to change, basically by their own admission waiting out their retirement and in doing so blocking promotion chances for younger staff.

Obviously this is not the case for everyone, but it is definitely a reality.
From what I've seen working with a number of clients, you've hit the nail on the head with that second statement...usually leads to drastic moves like the one from Nestle when often it would have made sense to gradually change and move the scene along earlier on...surely everyone could see the impending train that was coming? Where people were being grossly overpaid for a job which was becoming largely commoditised and evolving...it's a joint responsibility of employers and employees to recognise they needed to respond in some way IMO
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Old 19.09.2018, 19:58
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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This is so stupid. There are +100k of people in IT, and Google hires 2% of them. You're saying that 98% are average?
98% didn't pass the political spectrum qualification test.
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  #71  
Old 19.09.2018, 21:00
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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From what I've seen working with a number of clients, you've hit the nail on the head with that second statement...usually leads to drastic moves like the one from Nestle when often it would have made sense to gradually change and move the scene along earlier on...surely everyone could see the impending train that was coming? Where people were being grossly overpaid for a job which was becoming largely commoditised and evolving...it's a joint responsibility of employers and employees to recognise they needed to respond in some way IMO
It does hit to the heart of the idea: nestle is stating that IT has changed and can now be run by younger people from a cheaper location. If they are right, they will save millions, if wrong it will cost them many times that. Of course like global warming we will never know the other outcome as only one path will be experienced but I will watch with interest to see what happens - albeit from outside the company.
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Old 20.09.2018, 07:49
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

“A man wants to earn money in order to be happy, and his whole effort and the best of a life are devoted to the earning of that money. Happiness is forgotten; the means are taken for the end.”
― Albert Camus
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  #73  
Old 20.09.2018, 07:57
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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It does hit to the heart of the idea: nestle is stating that IT has changed and can now be run by younger people from a cheaper location. If they are right, they will save millions, if wrong it will cost them many times that. Of course like global warming we will never know the other outcome as only one path will be experienced but I will watch with interest to see what happens - albeit from outside the company.



Tough luck, have a look at Châtel St-Denis, plenty of companies moving up there, including one building in front of Landi.....
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Old 20.09.2018, 09:41
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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Just seen this. I think (and I speak objectively here) that this is a problem that a fair few Swiss companies suffer from with regards to some middle-aged staff who have been there for decades. Reduced drive and performance and unwillingness to change, basically by their own admission waiting out their retirement and in doing so blocking promotion chances for younger staff.
The long serving old staff are also in the google "trap" in thse companies. They've had regular payrises and increments, and now have a salary they could not get if they had to apply for a new job in another company.
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Old 20.09.2018, 10:28
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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The long serving old staff are also in the google "trap" in thse companies. They've had regular payrises and increments, and now have a salary they could not get if they had to apply for a new job in another company.
Not only that, but I have met a few that have become so institutionalised and so used to cruising along saying and doing what they want (within reason) that imo they would struggle with how to behave in a new company and the thought of applying for a new role outside of the company terrifies them. I am not even sure that some of that minority would be able to perform to the baseline level in many modern and more dynamic companies.
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  #76  
Old 20.09.2018, 10:34
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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I hope what you mean here is that what you say in the later sentences holds for the countries in the first sentence of this paragraph. Because in my experience, people who move onto business analysis from software development are those who are not very good developers and who cannot cope with the difficulty of both understanding the business requirement and correctly implementing a software solution for it.
Um, he was actually quite clear and I can confirm his experience: programmers are at the bottom of the food chain. BAs earn (slightly) better and people in business might talk to them (if they are forced to by their bosses) on the promise that they don't have to talk to developers in return.


I fully agree that the two jobs require totally different skills and that the best programmer might be a terrible BA and vice versa. But that has not stopped programmers from looking for a better paid job after 2 or so years. BA is one of those job options as they are typically in demand and easier to get than into either IT management or the elusive well paid dev contract.
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Old 20.09.2018, 10:41
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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Tough luck, have a look at Châtel St-Denis, plenty of companies moving up there, including one building in front of Landi.....
This is another Canton my friend. Different rules apply
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  #78  
Old 20.09.2018, 11:13
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

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I fully agree that the two jobs require totally different skills and that the best programmer might be a terrible BA and vice versa. But that has not stopped programmers from looking for a better paid job after 2 or so years. BA is one of those job options as they are typically in demand and easier to get than into either IT management or the elusive well paid dev contract.
There is an army of developers from India ready to jump out of IBM / Infosys / TechM / Wipro slavery selling themselves as BAs and application managers in Switzerland, just by accepting a starting salary 10-20K lower than anyone else (which is peanuts in Switzerland). These are the same guys who absorbed your knowledge in years of multinational offshoring practice: it all started with the need to reduce costs by offshoring in fact. Companies like Nestlé corrupted the IT job market in this country in a way that is hardly recoverable.
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Old 20.09.2018, 11:18
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

tip for the "young dynamic unsuccessful": Instead of being whiny, go apply for a better job, e.g. www.jobserve.com and check your market value.
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  #80  
Old 20.09.2018, 11:41
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Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande

hopefully you get a large payoff.

i sometimes wonder if getting made redundant would be so bad if you got 2 years 'garden leave' plus RAV...
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