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-   -   Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande (https://www.englishforum.ch/other-general/284057-nestle-cuts-580-logistics-jobs-swiss-romande.html)

Gramatyka356 20.09.2018 13:11

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_MCR (Post 2993543)
i sometimes wonder if getting made redundant would be so bad if you got 2 years 'garden leave' plus RAV...

Yeah, it all depends how you see it. I experience this situation first hand, I wasn't at Nestle though.

I love my work even though I tend to agree that software developers are being pushed at the bottom of every organization. First thing was regret and I eagerly searched the job market with lots of anxiety. From perspective I'd say I panicked. I got used to the situation, all stress gone. It's not nice if you are rejected because of any little thing and the rare occasion when you get the offer it's below your chomage/RAV. However I can continue doing what I can regarding the job search. It doesn't take much time. I finally have time for self development and even though most likely I'll leave Switzerland when the chomage ends, as there's plenty of interesting jobs out there, I'd say it's quite refreshing to have a career break. You have the opportunity to see things from perspective.

Treverus 20.09.2018 13:54

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_MCR (Post 2993543)
hopefully you get a large payoff.

i sometimes wonder if getting made redundant would be so bad if you got 2 years 'garden leave' plus RAV...

But that's rarely happening in Switzerland, isn't it? In other EU countries do you get a year or so because the labour laws make the employers do it... not because they like to blow money on you.


And on the masses of Indian developers who "absorbed the knowledge"... honestly: Ive been told the best part of two decades that some Indian would take over my job one day. Its not happening and anyone who has worked in some outsourcing project knows exactly why. Cheap oversee labour is not a danger to a good IT person. Depending on what you do is automation the thing to look out for...

DerDieDas 20.09.2018 14:14

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Leszek (Post 2993561)
even though most likely I'll leave Switzerland when the chomage ends, as there's plenty of interesting jobs out there, I'd say it's quite refreshing to have a career break. You have the opportunity to see things from perspective.


Off-topic but from the post below I though you got a job and even more offers. I remember this thread well because I was looking for a job then as well.

https://www.englishforum.ch/employme...ml#post2912754

Guest 20.09.2018 14:20

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinkiwinki (Post 2993525)
This is another Canton my friend. Different rules apply


Châtel is 10 minutes up the A12......from Vevey.


What rules exactly are different in finding a job ???

Gramatyka356 20.09.2018 14:43

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DerDieDas (Post 2993579)
Off-topic but from the post below I though you got a job and even more offers. I remember this thread well because I was looking for a job then as well.

Indeed but sadly I've made the wrong choice. The job I took did not work out. Now there's a dry season again :( though job ads started to fill the boards. Nonetheless most often when I get to the finals the renumeration does not match my expectations. I don't aim too high, I hope, but earning < 100k is below what I consider good enough to continue working in Switzerland.

JoshWilliams 20.09.2018 14:44

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2993573)
And on the masses of Indian developers who "absorbed the knowledge"... honestly: Ive been told the best part of two decades that some Indian would take over my job one day. Its not happening and anyone who has worked in some outsourcing project knows exactly why. Cheap oversee labour is not a danger to a good IT person. Depending on what you do is automation the thing to look out for...

Not sure when was last time you ever walked in a multinational IT office here in Switzerland but you should be able to recognize what I'm talking about, without getting into any sort of racial statement here which is not the intention. You would be surprised to find out how many of them became permanent employees, after dropping out of IBM or Infosys for example. And btw even automation is usually offshored to India nowadays. Nice guys but just stealing jobs using multinational offshore programs as the vehicle to get directly in touch with end clients. Meanwhile we have plenty of unemployed engineers in surrounding countries and Switzerland trying to control immigration! Would be ridiculous if it was not sad.

Treverus 20.09.2018 15:03

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshWilliams (Post 2993588)
Not sure when was last time you ever walked in a multinational IT office here in Switzerland but you should be able to recognize what I'm talking about, without getting into any sort of racial statement here which is not the intention. You would be surprised to find out how many of them became permanent employees, after dropping out of IBM or Infosys for example. And btw even automation is usually offshored to India nowadays. Nice guys but just stealing jobs using multinational offshore programs as the vehicle to get directly in touch with end clients. Meanwhile we have plenty of unemployed engineers in surrounding countries and Switzerland trying to control immigration! Would be ridiculous if it was not sad.



Ok, then let me be clear: I worked for an international software company and my developers were based in Hyderabad. I have been there many times. I could tell you now in length why off-shoring typically fails, but lets just say that the hourly rate is not the only thing one should think of when planning an organization.


But you were much more concerned about the expats already here... Some of the smartest developers I met in my career were Indians... and so were the vast majority of the bad ones.


If you feel threatened by a guy who faced
- massive cultural differences
- language issues
- on average a worse education than Europeans
- no network
- extremely high hurdles to get a work permit


Well, lets just say that if you cannot compete than there is something wrong with you, not "them".


I am working in the EU now and when I look around am I one of the last Western Europeans around. Hungarians, Romanians, Polish are much more common. Less cultural differences, better education, no immigration hurdles than Indians... that's a proper competition. I can today easily get a team of well educated and motivated guys in Ukraine for the same price as in India. And even then: I think there will be more IT people getting fired for jobs that will be automated in the near future than for being replaced with some cheaper immigrant within the country. The Indian guy in your department is not taking your job, that's a myth.

Gramatyka356 20.09.2018 15:03

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2993573)
And on the masses of Indian developers who "absorbed the knowledge"... honestly: Ive been told the best part of two decades that some Indian would take over my job one day. Its not happening and anyone who has worked in some outsourcing project knows exactly why. Cheap oversee labour is not a danger to a good IT person. Depending on what you do is automation the thing to look out for...

Companies rise and fall, business moves but somehow new investment fills the gap since there's not enough people with skills worldwide. Furthermore the demand for software engineers is constantly growing. The situation in Switzerland is quite unique. The currency is too strong and the prices have to fall to match the surrounding economies. So far I can tell that the salaries on offer try to fall but until the cost of living falls it is unacceptable. I don't agree to work in a country where local services and shopping feels too expensive for your salary.

Treverus 20.09.2018 15:07

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Leszek (Post 2993601)
Companies rise and fall, business moves but somehow new investment fills the gap since there's not enough people with skills worldwide. Furthermore the demand for software engineers is constantly growing. The situation in Switzerland is quite unique. The currency is too strong and the prices have to fall to match the surrounding economies. So far I can tell that the salaries on offer tend to fall but until the cost of living falls it is unacceptable. I don't want to work in a country where local services and shopping feels too expensive for your salary.


I fully agree. The typical Zurich banking IT contract fell from well over 1k a day to some 650 CHFs within the last ten years or so. At the same time are day rates in places like Luxembourg, Brussels or Paris easily 500 EUR as well. The Swiss tax system might be better but it does not make up for the higher cost of living. Simply put: Switzerland isn't as competitive as it used to be for IT professionals.

Gramatyka356 20.09.2018 15:24

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2993600)
The Indian guy in your department is not taking your job, that's a myth.

That's absolutely true. People, especially young, may agree to sacrifice a short time accepting lower wage but not for long term.

DerDieDas 20.09.2018 16:47

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Leszek (Post 2993587)
Indeed but sadly I've made the wrong choice. The job I took did not work out. Now there's a dry season again :( though job ads started to fill the boards. Nonetheless most often when I get to the finals the renumeration does not match my expectations. I don't aim too high, I hope, but earning < 100k is below what I consider good enough to continue working in Switzerland.

I understand. I hope things work out for you soon. I have had the weirdest experience this time around with interview processes and when I least expected it something worked out. No job is perfect but it definitely helps to feel "valued" again.

Good luck with the search and I agree: Having time off could be a blessing.

Treverus 20.09.2018 17:00

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DerDieDas (Post 2993629)
I understand. I hope things work out for you soon. I have had the weirdest experience this time around with interview processes and when I least expected it something worked out. No job is perfect but it definitely helps to feel "valued" again.

Good luck with the search and I agree: Having time off could be a blessing.

I never manage to make that work. Every time do I tell me that next time round I wont get stressed... but I just hate sitting at home reading job ads... and it seems to get worse as in the past I only had to battle with incompetent HR interns... these days you have to battle with terrible IT systems build to meet the requirements written by incompetent HR interns.

Phil_MCR 20.09.2018 17:34

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2993573)
But that's rarely happening in Switzerland, isn't it? In other EU countries do you get a year or so because the labour laws make the employers do it... not because they like to blow money on you.

Well, I know someone who just got under 2 years of pay on being made redundant in Basel. Since there's no law compelling the employer to do that, it seems that some companies do decide to blow money on you.

Treverus 20.09.2018 18:53

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_MCR (Post 2993644)
Well, I know someone who just got under 2 years of pay on being made redundant in Basel. Since there's no law compelling the employer to do that, it seems that some companies do decide to blow money on you.

I have never witnessed a company doing this without legal obligation unless we are talking about senior management... I'd totally be up for getting paid 24 months for no reason.

DerDieDas 20.09.2018 21:13

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2993635)
I never manage to make that work. Every time do I tell me that next time round I wont get stressed... but I just hate sitting at home reading job ads... and it seems to get worse as in the past I only had to battle with incompetent HR interns... these days you have to battle with terrible IT systems build to meet the requirements written by incompetent HR interns.

I completely sympathize. I have changed countries twice and am onto my 10th job. Each time I am unemployed (I tend to quit a job/change country before a new job is secured), I tell myself I will take time off and enjoy the luxury of having time myself but after a couple of weeks I start panicking.

This last time though, I did much better and enjoyed being my own boss. I am getting better at this :)

Having said that I am not sure if I can do this quitting a job before finding a new one thing again: I had a good response to my applications and had quite a few interviews but I felt I was being strung along with no intention of hiring or being used as "interview practice". I also have the feeling I represent a rare species in my area (SW Engineering) due to my gender, age and nationality and I might be invited for curiosity's sake. Hard to believe but I don't know how else to interpret my most recent job searching experience!

Tox_Rat 20.09.2018 22:27

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2993635)
... these days you have to battle with terrible IT systems build to meet the requirements written by incompetent HR interns.

I was never sure which was more annoying about being unemployed, this or the crazily unspecific job titles in the listings. If an employer is searching for a microbiologist with experience in microbiome genomic sequencing, then that should be the headline, not 'Scientist'. Crazily unspecific job titles like that are invariably followed by 4 pages about how fabulous the company is, before finally letting the reader know in the final paragraph that what they are looking for is an astrophysicist postdoc with a commercial driver's license and Oracle MySQL database management experience. :msnsarcastic: Moreover, none of the latter information is indexed with the listing site, so it is always completely unsearchable. Colossal waste of time....

ITguy 20.09.2018 22:53

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2993676)
I have never witnessed a company doing this without legal obligation unless we are talking about senior management... I'd totally be up for getting paid 24 months for no reason.

I have seen this happening with the companies who would like to protect their brand value and their ranking in the HR global/regional list. I know of a company (American multinational) in Switzerland that did the same and paid a month of salary for every 1.5 years of service and many many people got handsome sums. They paid it to all employees, management or non management, alike.
There is no compulsion for them to do this but they don't want bad press as that compromises their competitiveness in the market/business area.

Phil_MCR 20.09.2018 23:14

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2993676)
I have never witnessed a company doing this without legal obligation unless we are talking about senior management... I'd totally be up for getting paid 24 months for no reason.

you probably only worked for banks :msntongue:

Gramatyka356 21.09.2018 17:22

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DerDieDas (Post 2993723)
I completely sympathize. I have changed countries twice and am onto my 10th job. Each time I am unemployed (I tend to quit a job/change country before a new job is secured), I tell myself I will take time off and enjoy the luxury of having time myself but after a couple of weeks I start panicking.

I also used to do it, taking breaks. But then there was always a handful of jobs round the corner. It still holds true for EU but not so much about Switzerland.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerDieDas (Post 2993723)
Having said that I am not sure if I can do this quitting a job before finding a new one thing again: I had a good response to my applications and had quite a few interviews but I felt I was being strung along with no intention of hiring or being used as "interview practice". I also have the feeling I represent a rare species in my area (SW Engineering) due to my gender, age and nationality and I might be invited for curiosity's sake. Hard to believe but I don't know how else to interpret my most recent job searching experience!

Once, I suddenly wasn't feeling well in the morning, spend x minutes in the bathroom, missed the train and the interview. I told the recruiter what happened, then I heard back that the company don't care, won't schedule another appointment, as they already have a very good candidate but they were willing to interview me as I appeared to have lower salary expectations. I hadn't spoken about any numbers with them before so it was a really puzzling message.

JoshWilliams 21.09.2018 23:04

Re: Nestle cuts 580 IT/Logistics jobs in Swiss Romande
 
Quote:

Schneider had been their now for nearly 18 months, looking and deciding what to do and he is now moving.
Short term and Nestle don't go hand in hand, Nestle have never been one to look for short term gains over long term investements and i am sure when Schneider was appointed, this was one of the reasons he got the job, despite comming from a non food background, that he was not just looking for short term benefits.
Schneider comes from pharmaceutical business experience and strangely enough yesterday he announced he wants to dismiss Nestlé Skin Health (aka Galderma) within a year or so, that is the pharma branch of the group based in Lausanne. This is a sudden and drastic U-turn with respect to Paul Bulcke's long term strategy for that sector (new to Nestlé in fact). IMHO Schneider is just desperate for short term cash because he's under pressure from Loeb and other private investors, and he's handling it in a questionable, classic, simplistic and extremely conservative way. Global market dynamics won't help him in the mid-long term I'm afraid.


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