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  #101  
Old 18.08.2021, 20:43
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Re: Zürich to Munich

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Of course you can. People here tend to argue a little in extremes... Munich is very expensive for German standards. Besides the cost will the actual availability be the problem - as in to actually find a place. However, both from costs, income as well as tax system and everything else: far less extreme than living in Paris...

I think your idea to make the wife happy is great, so if the offer is right give it a try - in the worst case can you always come back to CH later on.
Thanks a lot ...will see for now Munich would be perfect solution - but I need to get something concrete before planning anything else
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  #102  
Old 18.08.2021, 20:54
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Re: Zürich to Munich

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Thanks a lot ...will see for now Munich would be perfect solution - but I need to get something concrete before planning anything else
Best of luck. And great effort to get your information right. I think its hard to give general answers. As a German do I know that "it depends": fixed salaries are lower than in CH by quite some margin - how much heavily depends on industry and job. Contracting looks totally different - I work in IT services and can tell you that hourly rates for contractors in Munich are not at all lower than in Zurich. Either way: anyone trying to tell you that it is some third world jungle is of course wrong - an educated double income couple can have a nice life there.
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  #103  
Old 19.08.2021, 07:45
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Re: Zürich to Munich

Another thing to consider are pension entitlements. Pensions are much lower in Germany than in CH, there is no second pillar and the retirement age is already two years higher and likely to increase.
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  #104  
Old 19.08.2021, 08:19
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Re: Zürich to Munich

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Another thing to consider are pension entitlements. Pensions are much lower in Germany than in CH, there is no second pillar and the retirement age is already two years higher and likely to increase.
Thanks - I was reading of that yesterday. Do you have any chance for a voluntary contribution like swiss 3a/b where you can reduce your tax burden and ensure that you get some extra when you retire?
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  #105  
Old 19.08.2021, 08:36
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Re: Zürich to Munich

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Thanks - I was reading of that yesterday. Do you have any chance for a voluntary contribution like swiss 3a/b where you can reduce your tax burden and ensure that you get some extra when you retire?
There is a thing called "Riester Rente" but as far as I know it is only of interest to people on low wages. Some companies have an obligatory additional pension insurance scheme but any "extra" you get will still leave you way below the Swiss pension level.
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  #106  
Old 19.08.2021, 11:29
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Re: Zürich to Munich

Most (German financial) forums tend to just advise to buy a low-TER ETF because any other forms of financial products aren't cost-effective and the tax-benefits (if at all) are negligible.

Sadly, simple products like 3rd-pillar with comparatively good tax-benefits don't exist.

Real-estate in Munich is meanwhile priced in Alice-in-Wonderland territory, rents are equally silly.

In the IT-world, self-employment is apparently big - mostly due to tax-considerations - but there are pitfalls there, too.

I do agree with the sentiment that the country as a whole is on a downward trajectory.
Did you know that about a 1/3rd of the total federal budget in Germany is now a subsidy to the pension-system? And this goes up every year, while no politician has the will or the stamina to do anything but cosmetic about it.

This also means that money for important investments is lacking, which has people extrapolating that "Germany will be the new Greece" in ten years.

So, if you go to Germany, consider that every single Euro-cent you pay into social security is basically lost. You will not get out any significant amount. At all. Thus the above mentioned rise in self-employment.

The only other alternative is to get a decently paid teaching position at a university and get tenure.

My father was a tenured civil servant for 40-ish years and his pension is killing it.
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  #107  
Old 19.08.2021, 12:19
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Re: Zürich to Munich

German demographics are quite scary.
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  #108  
Old 19.08.2021, 19:54
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Re: Zürich to Munich

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Most (German financial) forums tend to just advise to buy a low-TER ETF because any other forms of financial products aren't cost-effective and the tax-benefits (if at all) are negligible.

Sadly, simple products like 3rd-pillar with comparatively good tax-benefits don't exist.

Real-estate in Munich is meanwhile priced in Alice-in-Wonderland territory, rents are equally silly.

In the IT-world, self-employment is apparently big - mostly due to tax-considerations - but there are pitfalls there, too.

I do agree with the sentiment that the country as a whole is on a downward trajectory.
Did you know that about a 1/3rd of the total federal budget in Germany is now a subsidy to the pension-system? And this goes up every year, while no politician has the will or the stamina to do anything but cosmetic about it.

This also means that money for important investments is lacking, which has people extrapolating that "Germany will be the new Greece" in ten years.

So, if you go to Germany, consider that every single Euro-cent you pay into social security is basically lost. You will not get out any significant amount. At all. Thus the above mentioned rise in self-employment.

The only other alternative is to get a decently paid teaching position at a university and get tenure.

My father was a tenured civil servant for 40-ish years and his pension is killing it.
Thanks a lot for your overview! So based on your feedback there is no way to heavily reduce the tax burden with deductions isn't it?
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  #109  
Old 19.08.2021, 19:55
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Re: Zürich to Munich

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German demographics are quite scary.
More or less is the same picture across South Europe :/
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  #110  
Old 19.08.2021, 22:19
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Re: Zürich to Munich

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More or less is the same picture across South Europe :/
Its not the same at all: Germany is on the WEFs global competitiveness index on rank 7. Rank 2-7 have just very marginal differences and include besides two Asian city states Switzerland, the Netherlands and Japan. Only the US is significantly more competitive in its economy. Greece as well as two dozen EU countries in between are mostly a lot worse economically.
Germany has bought its economic strength by keeping labour costs low... that means comparably lower income but much better job stability and job market than most of the EU. With that did the country manage to attract plenty of young educated people from the rest of the EU from Spain to Greece... which are filling the gaps in the demographics.

But people on here tend to argue that Germany is somehow at the same time socialist and exploitative... the rating agencies who tell you where to invest your money disagree - they ALL give Germany a triple A while the UK for example gets an AA or AA-...
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  #111  
Old 19.08.2021, 23:03
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Re: Zürich to Munich

Investors have different objectives and KPIs than people who have to earn a living and put a bit of money aside.
You can live in Aargau but work in Zurich but you cannot work in Munich and commute in from Saxonia (or whatever is adjacent - I’m admittedly weak in the geography of that part of the country…).

And the demographic problems warrant an absolutely horrible outlook - because due to the wage repression you mentioned, a lot of the migrants contribute very little to the pension pool. If they contribute at all.

This is altogether a very dangerous mixture.
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  #112  
Old 19.08.2021, 23:07
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Re: Zürich to Munich

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Thanks a lot for your overview! So based on your feedback there is no way to heavily reduce the tax burden with deductions isn't it?
I loathe the German tax system.

I would, in your situation ask a German tax advisor.
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  #113  
Old 20.08.2021, 00:28
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Re: Zürich to Munich

Yes, buy some property in germany, rent it to somebody, to lower your tax burden.
But buying property in munich is out of reach for normal people.
Somebody had setting up its own business with parking spaces/garages, they don't need much maintenance, your money comes on time.
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  #114  
Old 20.08.2021, 09:05
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Re: Zürich to Munich

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Investors have different objectives and KPIs than people who have to earn a living and put a bit of money aside.
Sure, but you said that Germany will be the next Greece in a decade from now and thats just nonsensical. Because Greece has an economic crisis and Germany has one of the strongest economy on the planet. Its not comparable in any way.
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  #115  
Old 20.08.2021, 10:22
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Re: Zürich to Munich

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Sure, but you said that Germany will be the next Greece in a decade from now and thats just nonsensical. Because Greece has an economic crisis and Germany has one of the strongest economy on the planet. Its not comparable in any way.
That is true - but "the economy" does not happen in the cloud (with a small c...).

Everything in Germany is literally crumbling: schools, streets, bridges, public buildings.

Germany's mobile phone network is the laughing stock of the world, politicians have admitted to be embarrassed to take calls on the road because they always disconnect.
Similar problems exist with high-speed residential and business internet connections.

At the same time, regulations have reached a level that many think makes it almost impossible to have any kind of manufacturing business unless you have very, very deep pockets and the determination (or stubbornness) of Elon Musk.
Grünheide, the Tesla Gigafactory, happens at this speed because Elon has people that are as determined as him and pays general contractors to throw people and money at problems and road-blocks while personally carrying a multi-billion dollar risk.
No hired CEO, no board in any company in Germany would do that. Literally not even at gun-point.


Greece didn't happen overnight because they suddenly realized they were short of a few billions. It was a process of slow decline that slowly but steadily ate away the foundations of the nation until literally nothing was left.

I (and many others) fear that Germany (a bit like the US) is currently literally bumbling away its future.


The longer you wait with this stuff, the more cruel and draconian are the measures you have to take to fix the problems later.
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  #116  
Old 20.08.2021, 10:48
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Re: Zürich to Munich

Whatever meta problems Germany may face - I am sure a young couple of 30 years of age will be able to live a very decent life in Munich on 120/130k EUR. Yes, Zurich would be better if OP's wife could find a job, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
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  #117  
Old 20.08.2021, 10:58
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Re: Zürich to Munich

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Whatever meta problems Germany may face - I am sure a young couple of 30 years of age will be able to live a very decent life in Munich on 120/130k EUR. Yes, Zurich would be better if OP's wife could find a job, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
That is of course true - but don't underestimate the speed with which problems can unfold these days.
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