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Old 26.07.2021, 13:52
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Re: Deleting My Account

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People will always insult each other. This is something that's part of every culture and we can not get rid of it easily or soon.

What happens with these examples, "chinese girl","black girl" examples, they're just part of that false narrative and sort of an ebay for who's going to be less racist by pointing out cases like this then BLM etc..

I'll explain now racism and all kinds of discrimination are to be fought when it comes to state/laws/regulations. That's when it is wrong when you have a segregation or some unwritten laws. (like the order from the mayor that's behind real estate agencies not selling property to a certain community)

Otherwise, this is what happens .. people look at each other.. And they fight about something.. if the person who is looking at you or you're looking at.. are having something significant physically, "being of another colour,ethnicity." then it'll be "you stupid chinese cow" .. but let's say they're both the same.. then , if one of them is overweight then it'll be "you big pig..." .. but if one is short then it's "you midget..." then if one is ginger "then you ginger.." so basically people insult each other first on what's visible .
You make a good point and one which I agree with but only to a certain extent. You stupid [descriptor] bastard just needs an easy descriptor to be added. However, when that descriptor is a group that are often discriminated against you're, whether you intend to or not, propagating hatred/bad feeling towards that group. If an insult is given simply because a person is of a particular race, then it's racist, by definition. If a person attacks others imply because they're fat then it's "fattest" but while that might be socially unacceptable it isn't a considered to be at the same level. Maybe it should be.

"You stupid loppy-haired wanker" likely isn't going to produce much general offence, however simply "you stupid woman" can be received and often intended that all women are stupid. Although factually correct, I would accept it as being mysogynistic. Similarly when you hear the same from women - very often the attack is specifically on the gender.

I have had a particular physical attribute since an early age and I often, still to this day, get unprovoked comments in the street. I am #metoo when it comes to unwanted attention based upon my physical appearance but to much lesser extent to some other groups. Like you say often physical appearance or attributes is often just a convenient thing to pick up on for anyone looking to be "clever" or "funny".

Last edited by Landers; 26.07.2021 at 14:04.
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  #642  
Old 26.07.2021, 14:02
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Re: Deleting My Account

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Again, I'm just trying to understand when exactly someone has the right to feel offended. Because it doesn't really make sense to me for someone else to gauge that, I guess.
Of course you have the right to be offended, you can do whatever you like as long as nobody else is affected.

Feelings are just not a rational argument, that's Cleese's point.
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"You stupid loppy-haired wanker" likely isn't going to produce much general offence, however simply "you stupid woman" can be received and often intended that all women are stupid.
You confirm amogles' earlier point of double standards. It's perfectly Ok to insult (white) men (pretty much all men do it for themselves at least once in a blue moon) but it's a complete no-no to insult women - men are fair game, women aren't. Women have the right to be offended, men don't.
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  #643  
Old 26.07.2021, 14:14
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Re: Deleting My Account

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I kept the description as is ... even if you identify as a man, your female organs are still intact. So far, they have accepted that.
Reminded me of this.
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  #644  
Old 26.07.2021, 14:20
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Re: Deleting My Account

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According to wokesters you can identify as whatever race you want and whatever sex you want.

But you can't chose the size of your ass.

So which form of discrimination is greater?
But you could indentify as Rubenesque. So what's the problem?

Actually I just realized thanks to these wokesters life has become incredibly easy, it's all a matter of how you apply this .... theory? Lifestyle? Philosophy? What the heck is it anyway?
  #645  
Old 26.07.2021, 14:23
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Re: Deleting My Account

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Of course you have the right to be offended, you can do whatever you like as long as nobody else is affected.

Feelings are just not a rational argument, that's Cleese's point.

You confirm amogles' earlier point of double standards. It's perfectly Ok to insult (white) men (pretty much all men do it for themselves at least once in a blue moon) but it's a complete no-no to insult women - men are fair game, women aren't.
This.

I also think that we all understand why people insult and why people feel offended. Whether it is personal or a matter of a class (of women..race, etc.). This is in my opinion a matter of being well raised/education/manners/where one is and who one talks to...etc. It has always existed and will, the societal norms of politeness and civility, etc.

I think what I see contientious here is not this, but politically correct stuff. Some self proclaimed authority dictating people who to expect ill intent from and when to feel hurt. This is an entirely different issue than the one above. It is prescriptive, normative and creates victims and evils even when there is no intention and no reason. It gains by destroying people by pretending that the ill intent is there just not so obvious. It poses for saviors and gains support by pretence and disingenuity, by tarring people with ill intents. It empowers only those who selfproclaim to be the authority on this and who check this and sanction, it never protects those who supposedly suffer, it makes them suffer more. It exposes them to ill intent because it dictates that we automatically have to expect it. It makes people expect and create handicaps where there are none and they are abandoned when the popularity of the authority is sufficient.

As FD said though, dictate good behavior and people will do the opposite.
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  #646  
Old 26.07.2021, 15:05
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Re: Deleting My Account

Maybe a lot of it just a reflection of evolving social norms.

Sixty years ago, it was commonplace for many white people to openly refer to black people as "the N word" and to consider them and treat them as inferior human beings. Thankfully, that's no longer really considered socially acceptable, for the most part, and so many people have adjusted their behavior because of it -- reflecting evolved social norms. More children would probably grow up to adopt those redefined social norms as well -- being born into a society where it was no longer considered acceptable to use "the N word" and/or to treat black people as being inferior.

So maybe what some people perceive as being "PC" is more like an evolution of social norms and a revised definition of what we consider to be moral or immoral behavior or beliefs.
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Old 26.07.2021, 15:17
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Re: Deleting My Account

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Maybe a lot of it just a reflection of evolving social norms.

Sixty years ago, it was commonplace for many white people to openly refer to black people as "the N word" and to consider them and treat them as inferior human beings. Thankfully, that's no longer really considered socially acceptable, for the most part, and so many people have adjusted their behavior because of it -- reflecting evolved social norms. More children would probably grow up to adopt those redefined social norms as well -- being born into a society where it was no longer considered acceptable to use "the N word" and/or to treat black people as being inferior.

So maybe what some people perceive as being "PC" is more like an evolution of social norms and a revised definition of what we consider to be moral or immoral behavior or beliefs.
Of course, thankfully. In my view, this however should not go as far as removing all historic, but now not appropriate anymore language and somehow pretend this never happened.

Trivializing racism to something like to a casual insult, on the other hand, is despicable.
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Old 26.07.2021, 15:29
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Re: Deleting My Account

Off-subject, but after reading the last two comments, I just had to post this awful story; maybe it belongs in the US-race-tinderbox thread, but here it is. Most Americans have no idea what a dumpster fire the South was, and how they are still unable to face their past:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...TheAtlanticcom
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  #649  
Old 26.07.2021, 15:30
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Re: Deleting My Account

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Of course, thankfully. In my view, this however should not go as far as removing all historic, but now not appropriate anymore language and somehow pretend this never happened.

Trivializing racism to something like to a casual insult, on the other hand, is despicable.
Well, I guess racism can manifest in various ways. And one person's "casual insult" can maybe feel like a huge insult to another. I can totally see your point, though. I mean, banning books that contain "the N word" isn't going to make racism go away. If anything, it should present the opportunity for teachers to have conversations about racism with their students. (Sadly, I think a lot of parents don't have those talks with their kids at home).

When I look back on what the "norms" were many years ago, it just blows my mind. Imagine living in a society now where black people are still enslaved or where black people are still being forced to use separate bathrooms, not allowed in restaurants, etc. And then for all of us to consider that perfectly normal and acceptable behavior. I think the "evolution of social conscience" is fascinating really. We went from enslaving black people, to slowly giving them their freedom and their rights and now here we are, still trying to undo all those years of overt racism on a social level. Both of my parents are white "baby boomers" and were each born to parents who used "the N word" and thought of blacks as being inferior. I can see now in my own parents how they kind of struggle, mentally, with having been raised with those beliefs and according to those social norms but are now living in a time when that kind of mindset is (thankfully) no longer really considered acceptable. I'm hoping that, with more generations, that kind of mentality will become increasingly rare. But that could very well just be wishful thinking on my part.
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  #650  
Old 26.07.2021, 15:47
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Re: Deleting My Account

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Off-subject, but after reading the last two comments, I just had to post this awful story; maybe it belongs in the US-race-tinderbox thread, but here it is. Most Americans have no idea what a dumpster fire the South was, and how they are still unable to face their past:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...TheAtlanticcom
Indeed - Texas is far from being a beacon of light - but when we moved to Memphis, Tennessee for my husband’s career, I was regularly shocked at the outright open and rampant racism even in the most refined of settings. It definitely opened my eyes ... and we got the heck out of there as soon as we could.
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  #651  
Old 26.07.2021, 17:07
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Re: Deleting My Account

Never been to Texas, nor to Tennessee – but the last couple of posts, had me thinking to me…
Are some aware* Americans, who managed to escape from their racist dystopian homeland but still have to uphold their collective guilt vis-à-vis black slavery to all of us, just trying to share the blame?
No attempt at denying any other nation’s historical involvement but hey! The USA has always been special…

*avoiding “woke”
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  #652  
Old 26.07.2021, 17:13
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Re: Deleting My Account

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Trivializing racism to something like to a casual insult, on the other hand, is despicable.
Not every race-based slur is racist, if I had to guess I'd say most aren't. You need to take context (including the speaker) into consideration.

However, (not speaking about you komso with this) that amount of nuance is too much asked from the woketivists.
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Old 26.07.2021, 17:16
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Re: Deleting My Account

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Not every race-based slur is racist, if I had to guess I'd say most aren't. You need to take context (including the speaker) into consideration.
Maybe. My question was to FD's post where it sounded to me like racism generally was nothing than casual insults. I might have misunderstood her post, hence asked her to clarify.
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Old 26.07.2021, 17:32
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Re: Deleting My Account

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Never been to Texas, nor to Tennessee – but the last couple of posts, had me thinking to me…
Are some aware* Americans, who managed to escape from their racist dystopian homeland but still have to uphold their collective guilt vis-à-vis black slavery to all of us, just trying to share the blame?
No attempt at denying any other nation’s historical involvement but hey! The USA has always been special…

*avoiding “woke”
I don't feel personally guilty for America's history of black slavery as none of my ancestors were even in the country at the time ... if I came from a plantation owning family who still lives off the wealth generated from slavery, then perhaps I would. I condemn our past atrocities - sadly there are many. Segregation was around during my parents lifetime, hence I consider it recent history and we should not forget it as its effects are long lasting.

In some places or neighborhoods in my country today, not much has changed since before segregation was banned. Racism is ever present in American society towards many races ... well, in any society really. All we can do now is work towards a more open and kind world. It seems there are many growing pains in the process...

But no, I feel no guilt for being the person I was born as - my actions are all that I can control & even though I now live abroad, my home country will always be my country, therefore I care about what is happening there.
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Old 26.07.2021, 18:01
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Re: Deleting My Account

Thanks, Suzie-Q. I was trying to make the point that the USA seems to struggle with hereditary racial issues which don’t necessarily apply to, in this instance Switzerland, where everybody knows that the next village’s local cop’s second cousin is a right bastard anyway. In my experience, any additional challenge in pigmentation is best eased by trading insults in local vernacular
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Old 26.07.2021, 18:06
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Re: Deleting My Account

My father's family was Carolina landgrave. Did they own slaves? I have no idea. Not my guilt. Not woke. I was brought up to believe everyone was equal.
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Old 26.07.2021, 18:07
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Re: Deleting My Account

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Maybe a lot of it just a reflection of evolving social norms.

Sixty years ago, it was commonplace for many white people to openly refer to black people as "the N word" and to consider them and treat them as inferior human beings. Thankfully, that's no longer really considered socially acceptable..
Wrong - it's exactly the wokesters who are pushing racism :

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  #658  
Old 26.07.2021, 18:22
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Re: Deleting My Account

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Never been to Texas, nor to Tennessee – but the last couple of posts, had me thinking to me…
Are some aware* Americans, who managed to escape from their racist dystopian homeland but still have to uphold their collective guilt vis-à-vis black slavery to all of us, just trying to share the blame?
No attempt at denying any other nation’s historical involvement but hey! The USA has always been special…

*avoiding “woke”
I'm not so sure that it really has much to do with guilt or trying to share the blame as much as it has to do with simply acknowledging that it happened and that it was wrong. I mean, if someone in their 30's today with German ancestry acknowledges that the Holocaust was wrong, are they expressing guilt about it? I don't feel that it's necessary to take on some kind of "collective shame" or "collective guilt" in order to acknowledge that slavery is and was wrong. It's not really that difficult to know or to realize that it was wrong, is it?

You can acknowledge that something is wrong without shame or guilt being involved.

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Old 26.07.2021, 18:51
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Re: Deleting My Account

Them expressing their guilt is one thing, them being held accountable for it because of their German origin is wrong.

It seems again very theoretical (political interest), I know zero person of whatever origin who'd think that slavery was or is ok. Or anyone who'd need to realize anything about slavery. Yanks bombing my hometown is another story, Germans not paying WWII reparations another.

So, I think it is important to take in the context of these campaigns. Some collective guilt in Europe over Amerrican slavery is rather fake. Everyone knows that it was wrong. I do not expect Russians that live in Prague to go to Czechs and apologize for occupying us, either, since they ran away probably from the same menace. Any local politician that will try to gain power by exploiting the old issue will be flamed for ethical disingenuity, I think it is obvious to the local population. As long as the history books are written well.
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Old 26.07.2021, 18:58
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Re: Deleting My Account

If someone really cares about slavery, then better do something about today's slavery in for example the arabic countries or Mali. The past is the past. We cannot change it and everyone involved has died a long time ago.
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