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Old 28.07.2021, 23:00
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Re: Deleting My Account

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And that's a HUGE problem. So many people confuse their subjective opinions as being objective truth.
I think HUGE problem is the fact that this objective truth will be different with the flavor of the terms you chose to describe it with. The whole description will be different than somebody else's.

So when somebody shows up and says, "No, it's me who has figured out the objective truth", you can imagine the reactions that person gets.

It gets better once people stop referring to their way of seeing stuff as "objective truth". Even if it is.
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Old 28.07.2021, 23:02
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Re: Deleting My Account

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Pancake please)))))))))) Cant you see that I was joking ?? I said that the last time I went to a night club partying "only us who are leaving at 5am prove how Darwin was right . Only the strongest survive" ))
Sorry, I just often see people misinterpreting that theory. Usually, they seem to think that it means only the most intelligent will survive. But I can see how you were probably referring to "survival of the fittest."
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Old 28.07.2021, 23:04
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Re: Deleting My Account

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I think HUGE problem is the fact that this objective truth will be different with the flavor of the terms you chose to describe it with. The whole description will be different than somebody else's.

So when somebody shows up and says, "No, it's me who has figured out the objective truth", you can imagine the reactions that person gets.

It gets better once people stop referring to their way of seeing stuff as "objective truth". Even if it is.
Yeah, and objective truth is a funny thing. There are so many discussions here on the EF, for example, regarding subjects that deal more with human perception and opinion rather than objective truth. (e.g. Is or was Trump a good or bad President). That's not really something that exists objectively in the universe because, by default, it is a matter of perception.
  #804  
Old 28.07.2021, 23:04
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Re: Deleting My Account

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If it is Darwinian - what would be the gain for those who feel more right than others... If I am right then I do not learn anything. I prefer not being right and learning new things, change opinions. There is a true Darwinian progress, in being wrong and changing direction for a better place.
I do not believe true Darwinian progress is in being wrong and changing direction for a better place,
Darwin's theory is about species making gradual changes to respond to their environment.
There are plenty of examples of species evolving in a "wrong" way and eventually dying out.
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  #805  
Old 28.07.2021, 23:07
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Re: Deleting My Account

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UrsMax, I wanted to ask you if you see feminists/feminism as something bad in general, or outdated.. or it is just this constant-victimization glam-pop feminism that gets on your nerves ?

like , you talk to a woman, you want to explain something and then, she'd be "whaaat? stop with your mansplaining! it's disrespectful, offensiiiveee" )

Or should I say, do you see feminists more or less (all the same) or not?
It depends on the specifics, toxic contemporary 3rd wave feminism doesn't even begin to compare to 1st and 2nd wave.

But first, just to get the comment on your example of the way, I couldn't like women outing themselves as staunch feminists more. It keeps me from wasting my time with someone who lives in a fantasy world and sees me as a criminal for no other reason than me being a man. That's equivalent to calling black people lazy and stupid just because they happen to be black. Unfortunately it often affects everyday interactions negatively but that's not my call.

I'm all for equal rights and opportunities, that's 1st and 2nd wave feminism. Equal rights and freedom of choice are the the flip side of personal accountability and responsibility - you takes your choices, you pays the price, you reap the fruits good or bad (within limits, hence the social safety net). Talking about CH there are more than just details left to solve, mostly female privileges, but in general the case is closed.

Contemporary feminism however, toxic 3rd wave feminism (some call it 4th wave), is an entirely differerent animal. Today it's no longer about equal choice (aka equality), it's about equal outcome (aka equity). Equity is impossible without massive amounts and permanent use of force, and removal of (or rendering irrelevant) freedom of choice. If they want 50% female engineers of equal quality as the typical male engineer, you'll have to force just about each of the women who are to take up that profession. How they can be expected to give it their best even though that's not their choice is a complete mystery wrapped in an enigma. Likewise you'll have to force most men you need for the quota to become kindergarten teacher. And that's just the beginning.

Toxic (i.e. contemporary) F. tries to assign guilt on one and moral superiority on the other group. The ironoy is that the general pattern ("we <insert sanctified group> are the oppressing white men's victim") perpetuates the situation by removing the "victims'" agency, the motivation to better oneself and improve the situation, and remove whatever oppresses them - "you're the victim, it's not your fault, there's nothing you can do or should change". It's almost as if, deep down, feminists thought women incapable of making change happen. Perhaps that's why it's historically the men's job.

I will never understand why female feminists aspire to essentially become men with a vagina, rather than take pride in and value their unique abilities and competences. It's undeniable by now that, if given free choice, women generally prefer "people" professions while men prefer "things" professions. Instead of celebrating real diversity and enjoy the marvelous fact that men and women complement each other, they try to make everybody equally miserable. Bloody heck, feminists become kindergarten and primary school teachers where they raise someone else's children instead of their own. That simply makes no sense!

Let me end by quoting Hillary Clinton. She said the following in 1998:
"Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat. Women often have to flee from the only homes they have ever known. Women are often the refugees from conflict and sometimes, more frequently in today’s warfare, victims. Women are often left with the responsibility, alone, of raising the children."

In other words, men's lives have zero value to her. The children don't really count either, they have no voice and only just lost their father and home so why should any feminist care.
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  #806  
Old 28.07.2021, 23:08
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Re: Deleting My Account

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Well that does not sound too supportive to new vocabulary
You're the one with the degree in the field of linguistics.
  #807  
Old 28.07.2021, 23:12
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Re: Deleting My Account

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Darwin spoke of the survival of a species, not the survival of individuals. Darwin's writings are full of examples of the death of individuals being good for the survival of the species.

Which is why we don't look to Darwin to solve philosophical questions.
Maybe that is the problem, though. Because if we ignore what we are programmed to do, how can we philosophy about our potential to change it. You cannot test normativity of mind without acknowledging normativity of our biological being.

A philosopher can assume all people are kind. A biologist will counter with Darwinian theory of survival. Now the ratio of each in all of us is completely different. So, splitting philo (individual) and bio (species) is a bit...counterproductive. Accepting we are made of the two, each of us just different mix of them, is probably a good starting point.

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Actually Darwin said (or I have it wrong) because I really thought Socrate said "you'll find true wisdom once you open a tinder account" ... he said,
Hybrids are superior )
Darwin would not like Tinder I think, nothing close to natural selection there. I think he would agree if we chose partners by sniffing them. It would also discover those ducks that identify as wolves.

And no worries, you are not offensive.

The comment about hybrid was accurate. See above.
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  #808  
Old 28.07.2021, 23:12
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Re: Deleting My Account

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Because it's comfortable to assume, I am right and therefore anybody who disagrees with me must be wrong.

Throw in some science words and people feel even more right.

Especially RealScience.
Fact!
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  #809  
Old 28.07.2021, 23:14
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Re: Deleting My Account

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Yeah, and objective truth is a funny thing. There are so many discussions here on the EF, for example, regarding subjects that deal more with human perception and opinion rather than objective truth. (e.g. Is or was Trump a good or bad President). That's not really something that exists objectively in the universe because, by default, it is a matter of perception.
I think you can avoid the perception trap by comparison. Was be better than Obama and in what, was he better than Biden and in what. I think it is important to listen to people instead of expecting them to agree.
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Old 28.07.2021, 23:16
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Re: Deleting My Account

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I think you can avoid the perception trap by comparison. Was be better than Obama and in what, was he better than Biden and in what. I think it is important to listen to people.
Comparison is the thief of joy.
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Old 28.07.2021, 23:19
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Re: Deleting My Account

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Which is quite automatic for anyone who is bored with always the same stimuli. Come with something new and watch the storm.

The fact that people still stick to old ideas might be because they frequently test them, other ideas might quickly change after a similar test.

But for an outsider, to be able to easily tell which ideas a subject tests and sticks to and which the subject tests and abandons...is impossible. Especially if this outsider comes with an existing bias that nobody thinks better and more accurately than her. If an outsider on top of the bias expresses a political desire to be right, people will hardly ever do more testing and reprogramming.

It comes to two things: the new ideas must be new but not too shocking, must be genuine and constructive, the desire to change status quo must not be pretended and it should not only hang on old systems and old ideas only with new terminology and relabeling. The last thing is, if it promotes more the speaker than the ideas, people will not listen. People will shrug it off as all the previous prophets and saviors who told them that everything was wrong.

Christians were super smart - the implemented change by accepting some of the old pagan rituals and thought system, and added some new stuff, spread it within a thousand years. And look at them now.

You can see new theories like religion, same process. Whether we accept or agree depends on many variables.
Ironically today pagan-based rituals like Christmas are surviving very well while the growth of Christianity is not keeping up with the population growth rate, maybe the pagans were the super smart ones.
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Old 28.07.2021, 23:24
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Re: Deleting My Account

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I think you can avoid the perception trap by comparison. Was be better than Obama and in what, was he better than Biden and in what. I think it is important to listen to people.
Yeah, maybe. But if someone hated Obama (and let's face it, many people on the right did), then I think they would be more likely to perceive Trump as being good. Conversely, if people liked Obama (and many people on the left did), then they would probably be more likely to not like Trump. So in that case, they're still having their perceptions filtered by comparisons. A bit like stepping out into the sun after being in a very dark room -- you're going to perceive that sunlight much brighter.
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Old 28.07.2021, 23:28
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Re: Deleting My Account

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Ironically today pagan-based rituals like Christmas are surviving very well while the growth of Christianity is not keeping up with the population growth rate, maybe the pagans were the super smart ones.
I agree with you.

What would a pagan think of people who identify as something else than they were born? I think they were quite tolerant. Dogma brought intolerance.
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Old 28.07.2021, 23:29
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If it is about opinions then everybody has a right to their conclusions.
If it is fact-based then only one side can have the correct conclusion there's only one correct basis but the conclusions may differ very mucho.
FTFY

Seems you've inadvertantly demonstrated a big part of a very multifaceted societal issue, whether this was intentionally phrased like you did or not.
See the discussions among the scientists, and their very different conclusions about covid, for instance.
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And that's a HUGE problem. So many people confuse their subjective opinions as being objective truth.
It is indeed. Just perhaps not in the way you're thinking of.
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Old 28.07.2021, 23:34
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Re: Deleting My Account

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Yeah, maybe. But if someone hated Obama (and let's face it, many people on the right did), then I think they would be more likely to perceive Trump as being good. Conversely, if people liked Obama (and many people on the left did), then they would probably be more likely to not like Trump. So in that case, they're still having their perceptions filtered by comparisons. A bit like stepping out into the sun after being in a very dark room -- you're going to perceive that sunlight much brighter.
The thing is, I come from a place that neither loves nor hates their politicians. I liked Havel because he was a philosopher, lol, but more as a writer than as a president.

I think CH also does not get too personal about these leading jobs and responsibilities.

People do not compare themselves to politicians nor do they celebrate them as saviors.

So the way people get attached to political issues, team sports...religion seems exaggerated. It is still interesting to listen to people or read their wild stories.
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Old 28.07.2021, 23:36
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Re: Deleting My Account

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If it is about opinions then everybody has a right to their conclusions.
If it is fact-based then only one side can have the correct conclusion.
I think this is quite wrong, with respect. We can easily agree on facts. The problem comes with how we interpret the facts and how we use them as a basis for action.

For instance, the argument on gun control in the US isn't a difference of opinion on the number of people killed by guns each year, or the number of guns owned. We can all agree on those facts. But as the deaths increase, some people say this means that the government should crack down on guns and reduce ownership. Others will point to the same facts -- that gun deaths are increasing -- and use this to argue that they need more guns to protect themselves against other gun owners.
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Old 28.07.2021, 23:38
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Ironically today pagan-based rituals like Christmas are surviving very well while the growth of Christianity is not keeping up with the population growth rate, maybe the pagans were the super smart ones.
Can't be this

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Old 28.07.2021, 23:47
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Re: Deleting My Account

I wish it wasn't time for bed. This conversation is getting goood... Nice and philosophical.
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Old 29.07.2021, 00:03
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Re: Deleting My Account

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Darwin would not like Tinder I think, nothing close to natural selection there.
Quite the contrary. Most women will pick the same above average attractive 10-20% of men.
They share two traits: size and high income. High income generally means mid-thirties and older for the men, age-wise.

With an abundance of options, it should be no surprise that those men won't settle, they just keep hopping from flower to flower. The problem for the women is, when they finally want to settle (typically they're in their 30ies already) they're no longer at an age that's attractive for the men intending to marry to have children. Plus, their income has by then risen so high, it leaves relatively few suitable candidates. Those candidates on the other hand have options, see above, and will generally favor younger women.
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Old 29.07.2021, 01:06
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Re: Deleting My Account

lol... Have you ever studied statistics?

WRT facts, most "sides" declare that their opinions are facts, and the rest of the debate takes place under a false assumption.

If there was any real desire to vet "facts", then maybe we can get somewhere. But where is that going to start?

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If it is about opinions then everybody has a right to their conclusions.
If it is fact-based then only one side can have the correct conclusion.
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