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-   -   Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais (https://www.englishforum.ch/other-general/305083-medieval-glacial-irrigation-valais.html)

eyebeebe 22.07.2021 09:43

Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais
 
Interesting (to me at least) article on the BBC website. As the article says near the end, something I‘d never heard of before, despite it being on the CHF 100 note.

https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/2...fying-solution

bossybaby 22.07.2021 10:02

Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais
 
The Swiss levada...used all over Madeira, too.

XDr 22.07.2021 13:45

Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais
 
An earlier article on the same (s.t. paywall): https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/t...ng-bisses.html

From the original:
https://www.les-bisses-du-valais.ch/en/

And in the original:
https://bisses-valais.ch/musee-valaisan-des-bisses/
http://www.musee-des-bisses.ch/bisses
https://www.saviese.ch/fr/bisses-57.html

Urs Max 22.07.2021 15:56

Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eyebeebe (Post 3330241)
Interesting (to me at least) article on the BBC website. As the article says near the end, something I‘d never heard of before, despite it being on the CHF 100 note.

https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/2...fying-solution

I don't think it's as little known among the locals as the article wants to imply, at least the boomers will probably have had that at school. I grew up in the opposite side of CH, and remember that fairly well.

There's also a Swiss movie about it, An Heiligen Wassern (Sacred Waters), a drama where the protagonist gets to prove his worth and marry his love by securing safe water supply by replacing the ancient wooden aqeaduct (it keeps getting interrupted by avalanches, repairing often puts that man's life at risk) with a tunneled solution.

mutabor 22.08.2021 16:38

Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais
 
WHAT THEY PROBABLY DID NOT TELL YOU:

THIS ANCIENT SUONEN TECHNOLOGY WAS BROUGHT BY MUSLIMS TO SWITZERLAND AROUND THE YEAR 1000, SINCE THEY HAVE BEEN USING IT IN THE DESERTS OF NORTH-AFRICA FOR A LONG TIME (REGGANE).

MUSLIMS OCCUPIED THE HIGH ALPS FOR 3 CENTURIES AS PASTORAL NOMADS, HIGH ALPS BEING CONSIDERED A DESERT...

https://vioz.ch/uncategorized/grundsatzerklaerung/

olygirl 22.08.2021 17:01

Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mutabor (Post 3340481)
WHAT THEY PROBABLY DID NOT TELL YOU:

THIS ANCIENT SUONEN TECHNOLOGY WAS BROUGHT BY MUSLIMS TO SWITZERLAND AROUND THE YEAR 1000, SINCE THEY HAVE BEEN USING IT IN THE DESERTS OF NORTH-AFRICA FOR A LONG TIME (REGGANE).

MUSLIMS OCCUPIED THE HIGH ALPS FOR 3 CENTURIES AS PASTORAL NOMADS, HIGH ALPS BEING CONSIDERED A DESERT...

https://vioz.ch/uncategorized/grundsatzerklaerung/

Cool.

Taken from the above link:
Zuletzt soll auf weitere sarazenische Vermächtnisse hingewiesen werden, deren Ursprung im 4./10. Jahrhundert liegen und die bis dato ihren Dienst erfüllen. Hierzu zählen bauwerkliche Wasserführungen wie beispielsweise die ‚Sarrasin-Suone‘ bei Chandolin oder die ‚bisse de Sarazins‘ bei Vercorins, die in ähnlicher Form auch im marokkanischen Atlas Gebirge anzutreffen sind.
Ebenfalls zu diesen technischen Werken können Brunnen gezählt werden, wie etwa der Brunnen bei Lutry, der urkundlich als Mauro-Fonté bezeichnet wird.


Translated:
Finally, other Saracenic legacies should be pointed out, whose origins date back to the 4th/10th century and which are still serving their purpose. These include structural waterways such as the 'Sarrasin-Suone' near Chandolin or the 'bisse de Sarazins' near Vercorins, which can also be found in a similar form in the Moroccan Atlas Mountains.
Also among these technical works can be counted wells, such as the well near Lutry, documented as Mauro-Fonté.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

SrkiKi 22.08.2021 17:21

Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais
 
There is a pretty easy hike from Crans-Montana to Lac de Tseuzier, where you can see the irrigation system just next to the hiking path. Well, you hike along the system. I think it is called Bisse Du Ro. Can be crowded though as it is not very demanding.

Urs Max 22.08.2021 23:39

Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mutabor (Post 3340481)
WHAT THEY PROBABLY DID NOT TELL YOU:

THIS ANCIENT SUONEN TECHNOLOGY WAS BROUGHT BY MUSLIMS TO SWITZERLAND AROUND THE YEAR 1000, SINCE THEY HAVE BEEN USING IT IN THE DESERTS OF NORTH-AFRICA FOR A LONG TIME (REGGANE).

MUSLIMS OCCUPIED THE HIGH ALPS FOR 3 CENTURIES AS PASTORAL NOMADS, HIGH ALPS BEING CONSIDERED A DESERT...

https://vioz.ch/uncategorized/grundsatzerklaerung/

LMAO, cool story bro.

Unfortunately they're called aquaduct, a Latin noun, for a reason. The Romans brought that technology with them a thousand years or more before any Saracenes robbed and murdered the Alpine pepole. While the term is usually used for brige-like structures nowadays, these are just the most obvious part of an entire system.

Oh, and nevermind the linguists, who strongly refuse the idea of etymological Saracene influence on, among others, location and mountain names in the Swiss Alps.

mutabor 23.08.2021 02:07

Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais
 
You've gotten it wrong

romans did not penetrate into side valleys at their time, in fact, much was not even populated back then.
Legions did create infrastructure but certainly not for alpine sheppards... In wood, but to fortify their garrisons.

What is interesting is that moors, e.g. Black africans, penetrated the main alpine arteries as mercenaries. St. Maurice is named after one of them (he was christian and martyred).

Much of switzerland, alpine to jura, was heavily influenced by muslims, tell, the national hero founder, a descendant of them, bearing a arab name (meaning heights, alpine muslims stayed as nomadic herders in the high alps) - as can be seen by the many names surviving from that time: Lake moor (murten), and many more mentioned by historians.

So, to make it short, you are wrong.

HickvonFrick 23.08.2021 04:18

Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mutabor (Post 3340630)
You've gotten it wrong

romans did not penetrate into side valleys at their time, in fact, much was not even populated back then.
Legions did create infrastructure but certainly not for alpine sheppards... In wood, but to fortify their garrisons.

What is interesting is that moors, e.g. Black africans, penetrated the main alpine arteries as mercenaries. St. Maurice is named after one of them (he was christian and martyred).

Much of switzerland, alpine to jura, was heavily influenced by muslims, tell, the national hero founder, a descendant of them, bearing a arab name (meaning heights, alpine muslims stayed as nomadic herders in the high alps) - as can be seen by the many names surviving from that time: Lake moor (murten), and many more mentioned by historians.

So, to make it short, you are wrong.

Older versions of the name Murten predates the life of Muhammad. "Muratum", 515 AD. Thought to be of Celtic origin.

https://hls-dhs-dss.ch/de/articles/001014/2019-04-03/

St. Maurice / Mauritz etc. was born in (Hellenised and subsequently Romanised) Egypt in the 3rd century AD - part of the classical world and not what most people would call a "black African".

That said, the tale of the Saracen invaders in Switzerland the 10th century, it is an interesting read. See https://www.jstor.org/stable/4057147...n_tab_contents. Frankly it seems they robbed and pillaged everywhere they went (as did pretty much everyone else in Europe at the time) but some probably settled permanently in the Valais following destruction of their fort in eastern France.

PS William Tell probably didnt exist at all. No contemporary records and the story about the Apple is taken verbatim from older literature e.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palnatoke. It's a General Germanic myth - also see from my home area - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Bell (oddly similar last name incidentally) which is more or less contemporary with William Tell stories.

Urs Max 23.08.2021 12:17

Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mutabor (Post 3340630)
Much of switzerland, alpine to jura, was heavily influenced by muslims, tell, the national hero founder, a descendant of them, bearing a arab name (meaning heights, alpine muslims stayed as nomadic herders in the high alps) - as can be seen by the many names surviving from that time: Lake moor (murten), and many more mentioned by historians.

Sometimes the best thing to do is to quote yourself:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Urs Max (Post 3340619)
LMAO, cool story bro.


LtSoftDrink 23.08.2021 15:51

Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mutabor (Post 3340481)
WHAT THEY PROBABLY DID NOT TELL YOU:

THIS ANCIENT SUONEN TECHNOLOGY WAS BROUGHT BY MUSLIMS TO SWITZERLAND AROUND THE YEAR 1000, SINCE THEY HAVE BEEN USING IT IN THE DESERTS OF NORTH-AFRICA FOR A LONG TIME (REGGANE).

MUSLIMS OCCUPIED THE HIGH ALPS FOR 3 CENTURIES AS PASTORAL NOMADS, HIGH ALPS BEING CONSIDERED A DESERT...

https://vioz.ch/uncategorized/grundsatzerklaerung/


Quote:

Originally Posted by mutabor (Post 3340630)
You've gotten it wrong

romans did not penetrate into side valleys at their time, in fact, much was not even populated back then.
Legions did create infrastructure but certainly not for alpine sheppards... In wood, but to fortify their garrisons.

What is interesting is that moors, e.g. Black africans, penetrated the main alpine arteries as mercenaries. St. Maurice is named after one of them (he was christian and martyred).

Much of switzerland, alpine to jura, was heavily influenced by muslims, tell, the national hero founder, a descendant of them, bearing a arab name (meaning heights, alpine muslims stayed as nomadic herders in the high alps) - as can be seen by the many names surviving from that time: Lake moor (murten), and many more mentioned by historians.

So, to make it short, you are wrong.


Why don’t you go whole hog and confirm that these peaceful ambassadors of religious enlightenment also invented raclette while they were shivering on alpine pastures? Perhaps you also know where they imported their potatoes from?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urs Max (Post 3340619)
LMAO, cool story bro.

:D

Patxi 23.08.2021 17:01

Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Urs Max (Post 3340619)
Oh, and nevermind the linguists, who strongly refuse the idea of etymological Saracene influence on, among others, location and mountain names in the Swiss Alps.

I would be interested to read more about this. Any links that you suggest? From what I have seen, admittedly very little, I just believed the stories about some of the mountain/pass names in the Saastal and their arabic roots (Allalin, Mischabel, etc.,..).

LtSoftDrink 23.08.2021 17:12

Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais
 
The German entry is more detailed than the English one

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarazenen

Auch in denjenigen Fällen, in denen sich ein solches Toponym sprachlich tatsächlich aus dem Namen der Sarazenen herleiten lässt – wie speziell im Fall von Pontresina (1137–1139 als pons sarasina, 1303 als ponte sarracino belegt) und der Wasserleitung Bisse de Sarrazin im Walliser Vercorin – ist jedoch zu bedenken, dass im Hintergrund auch ein nicht oder nicht mehr ethnisch bedingter Personenname des namengebenden Erbauers oder Besitzers stehen kann oder eine allgemeinere Bedeutung wie „fremdartig, alt“. So schreibt das Historische Lexikon der Schweiz: „Der immer wieder postulierten arabischen Etymologie einiger Walliser Orts- und Bergnamen steht die linguistische Forschung ablehnend gegenüber.“

Even in those cases where such a toponym can actually be linguistically derived from the name of the Saracens - as especially in the case of Pontresina (1137-1139 as pons sarasina, 1303 as ponte sarracino attested) and the water conduit Bisse de Sarrazin in the Valais Vercorin - it must be considered, however, that in the background there can also be a personal name of the name-giving builder or owner that is not or no longer ethnically determined, or a more general meaning such as "strange, old". Thus, the Historical Dictionary of Switzerland writes: "The repeatedly postulated Arabic etymology of some Valais place and mountain names is opposed by linguistic research."

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Patxi 23.08.2021 17:53

Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LtSoftDrink (Post 3340883)
The German entry is more detailed than the English one

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarazenen

Auch in denjenigen Fällen, in denen sich ein solches Toponym sprachlich tatsächlich aus dem Namen der Sarazenen herleiten lässt – wie speziell im Fall von Pontresina (1137–1139 als pons sarasina, 1303 als ponte sarracino belegt) und der Wasserleitung Bisse de Sarrazin im Walliser Vercorin – ist jedoch zu bedenken, dass im Hintergrund auch ein nicht oder nicht mehr ethnisch bedingter Personenname des namengebenden Erbauers oder Besitzers stehen kann oder eine allgemeinere Bedeutung wie „fremdartig, alt“. So schreibt das Historische Lexikon der Schweiz: „Der immer wieder postulierten arabischen Etymologie einiger Walliser Orts- und Bergnamen steht die linguistische Forschung ablehnend gegenüber.“

Even in those cases where such a toponym can actually be linguistically derived from the name of the Saracens - as especially in the case of Pontresina (1137-1139 as pons sarasina, 1303 as ponte sarracino attested) and the water conduit Bisse de Sarrazin in the Valais Vercorin - it must be considered, however, that in the background there can also be a personal name of the name-giving builder or owner that is not or no longer ethnically determined, or a more general meaning such as "strange, old". Thus, the Historical Dictionary of Switzerland writes: "The repeatedly postulated Arabic etymology of some Valais place and mountain names is opposed by linguistic research."

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Pretty weak references digging a little bit deeper. As best as I can see is that the etymology is "not confirmed" rather than "strongly refuted" as stated upthread. It doesn't seem that far-fetched to me especially given the numerous examples of arabesque names in the region.

LtSoftDrink 23.08.2021 18:04

Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Patxi (Post 3340905)
Pretty weak references digging a little bit deeper. As best as I can see is that the etymology is "not confirmed" rather than "strongly refuted" as stated upthread. It doesn't seem that far-fetched to me especially given the numerous examples of arabesque names in the region.

If you have dug deeper, please share your results. Curious myself why tenuous partial colonization of less than 100 years is reflected in "arabesque" place names.

Patxi 23.08.2021 18:32

Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LtSoftDrink (Post 3340911)
If you have dug deeper, please share your results. Curious myself why tenuous partial colonization of less than 100 years is reflected in "arabesque" place names.

I have only gone as far as looking at the actual citation of the Sarazenen in the Historisches Lexicon der Schweiz. To be honest, it's a pretty brief article and the last sentence discussing the etymolygy was anything but conclusive. Haven't yet checked out the references for that article/chapter. Definitely not "strongly refuted" as Urs Max has stated. Would be interested to hear his sources for this.

BTW, I don't believe for a moment that this small band of "Moros" introduced the concept of aqueducts to Switzerland.

LtSoftDrink 23.08.2021 18:49

Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Patxi (Post 3340918)
I have only gone as far as looking at the actual citation of the Sarazenen in the Historisches Lexicon der Schweiz. To be honest, it's a pretty brief article and the last sentence discussing the etymolygy was anything but conclusive. Haven't yet checked out the references for that article/chapter. Definitely not "strongly refuted" as Urs Max has stated. Would be interested to hear his sources for this.

I suppose you mean https://hls-dhs-dss.ch/de/articles/008723/2012-01-11/

So you haven't dug any deeper than myself. Came across https://dtj-online.de/die-schweiz-im...erzen-europas/, for instance. Strangely enough, the marauding Muslim invaders are depicted as having established one of the oldest "cultural convergences" between Muslims and Christians - how time flies :D

Axa 23.08.2021 18:53

Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HickvonFrick (Post 3340634)
That said, the tale of the Saracen invaders in Switzerland the 10th century, it is an interesting read. See https://www.jstor.org/stable/4057147...n_tab_contents. Frankly it seems they robbed and pillaged everywhere they went (as did pretty much everyone else in Europe at the time) but some probably settled permanently in the Valais following destruction of their fort in eastern France.

Very interesting read, access to the gated article via Sci-Hub https://sci-hub.se/https://www.jstor.org/stable/4057147

There was a place named Frexinetum near comtemporary St-Tropez in France which was part of Al-Andalus. Saracens from there at some point (930?-970?) captured the Alpine passes and made them toll-roads :)

But...the Romans were fighting for the passes already 1000 years before. What's the chance the Romans forgot aqueducts and 1000 years later some guys occupying the passes for a few years brought water conveying technology?

Also, there's a limit in elevation where agriculture is possible. It's a little below the tree line, more or less at 2000 above sea level in the Alps. Above that elevation, water is useless, it's frozen most of time. So, did the Saracens produced their food up there in the passes, traded with people in the valleys or pillaged the valleys?

KiwiSteve 23.08.2021 19:05

Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais
 
SVP - Saracens Volks-Partei ?


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