Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Other/general  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 22.07.2021, 09:43
eyebeebe's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Pfäffikon SZ
Posts: 2,160
Groaned at 19 Times in 18 Posts
Thanked 2,877 Times in 1,216 Posts
eyebeebe has a reputation beyond reputeeyebeebe has a reputation beyond reputeeyebeebe has a reputation beyond reputeeyebeebe has a reputation beyond reputeeyebeebe has a reputation beyond reputeeyebeebe has a reputation beyond repute
Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais

Interesting (to me at least) article on the BBC website. As the article says near the end, something I‘d never heard of before, despite it being on the CHF 100 note.

https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/2...fying-solution
Reply With Quote
The following 8 users would like to thank eyebeebe for this useful post:
  #2  
Old 22.07.2021, 10:02
bossybaby's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Western Austria
Posts: 435
Groaned at 3 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 769 Times in 317 Posts
bossybaby has a reputation beyond reputebossybaby has a reputation beyond reputebossybaby has a reputation beyond reputebossybaby has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais

The Swiss levada...used all over Madeira, too.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank bossybaby for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 22.07.2021, 13:45
XDr's Avatar
XDr XDr is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Northeast
Posts: 156
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 208 Times in 115 Posts
XDr has an excellent reputationXDr has an excellent reputationXDr has an excellent reputationXDr has an excellent reputation
Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais

An earlier article on the same (s.t. paywall): https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/t...ng-bisses.html

From the original:
https://www.les-bisses-du-valais.ch/en/

And in the original:
https://bisses-valais.ch/musee-valaisan-des-bisses/
http://www.musee-des-bisses.ch/bisses
https://www.saviese.ch/fr/bisses-57.html
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank XDr for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 22.07.2021, 15:56
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: SG
Posts: 9,305
Groaned at 482 Times in 362 Posts
Thanked 12,399 Times in 6,428 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais

Quote:
View Post
Interesting (to me at least) article on the BBC website. As the article says near the end, something I‘d never heard of before, despite it being on the CHF 100 note.

https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/2...fying-solution
I don't think it's as little known among the locals as the article wants to imply, at least the boomers will probably have had that at school. I grew up in the opposite side of CH, and remember that fairly well.

There's also a Swiss movie about it, An Heiligen Wassern (Sacred Waters), a drama where the protagonist gets to prove his worth and marry his love by securing safe water supply by replacing the ancient wooden aqeaduct (it keeps getting interrupted by avalanches, repairing often puts that man's life at risk) with a tunneled solution.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 22.08.2021, 16:38
mutabor's Avatar
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lenzburg
Posts: 8
Groaned at 5 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
mutabor has become a little unpopularmutabor has become a little unpopular
Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais

WHAT THEY PROBABLY DID NOT TELL YOU:

THIS ANCIENT SUONEN TECHNOLOGY WAS BROUGHT BY MUSLIMS TO SWITZERLAND AROUND THE YEAR 1000, SINCE THEY HAVE BEEN USING IT IN THE DESERTS OF NORTH-AFRICA FOR A LONG TIME (REGGANE).

MUSLIMS OCCUPIED THE HIGH ALPS FOR 3 CENTURIES AS PASTORAL NOMADS, HIGH ALPS BEING CONSIDERED A DESERT...

https://vioz.ch/uncategorized/grundsatzerklaerung/
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank mutabor for this useful post:
This user groans at mutabor for this post:
  #6  
Old 22.08.2021, 17:01
olygirl's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: d' Innerschwiiz
Posts: 7,318
Groaned at 402 Times in 266 Posts
Thanked 17,273 Times in 5,306 Posts
olygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais

Quote:
View Post
WHAT THEY PROBABLY DID NOT TELL YOU:

THIS ANCIENT SUONEN TECHNOLOGY WAS BROUGHT BY MUSLIMS TO SWITZERLAND AROUND THE YEAR 1000, SINCE THEY HAVE BEEN USING IT IN THE DESERTS OF NORTH-AFRICA FOR A LONG TIME (REGGANE).

MUSLIMS OCCUPIED THE HIGH ALPS FOR 3 CENTURIES AS PASTORAL NOMADS, HIGH ALPS BEING CONSIDERED A DESERT...

https://vioz.ch/uncategorized/grundsatzerklaerung/
Cool.

Taken from the above link:
Zuletzt soll auf weitere sarazenische Vermächtnisse hingewiesen werden, deren Ursprung im 4./10. Jahrhundert liegen und die bis dato ihren Dienst erfüllen. Hierzu zählen bauwerkliche Wasserführungen wie beispielsweise die ‚Sarrasin-Suone‘ bei Chandolin oder die ‚bisse de Sarazins‘ bei Vercorins, die in ähnlicher Form auch im marokkanischen Atlas Gebirge anzutreffen sind.
Ebenfalls zu diesen technischen Werken können Brunnen gezählt werden, wie etwa der Brunnen bei Lutry, der urkundlich als Mauro-Fonté bezeichnet wird.


Translated:
Finally, other Saracenic legacies should be pointed out, whose origins date back to the 4th/10th century and which are still serving their purpose. These include structural waterways such as the 'Sarrasin-Suone' near Chandolin or the 'bisse de Sarazins' near Vercorins, which can also be found in a similar form in the Moroccan Atlas Mountains.
Also among these technical works can be counted wells, such as the well near Lutry, documented as Mauro-Fonté.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
__________________
Faith isn't about everything turning out okay. Faith is about being okay no matter how things turn out.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 22.08.2021, 23:39
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: SG
Posts: 9,305
Groaned at 482 Times in 362 Posts
Thanked 12,399 Times in 6,428 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais

Quote:
View Post
WHAT THEY PROBABLY DID NOT TELL YOU:

THIS ANCIENT SUONEN TECHNOLOGY WAS BROUGHT BY MUSLIMS TO SWITZERLAND AROUND THE YEAR 1000, SINCE THEY HAVE BEEN USING IT IN THE DESERTS OF NORTH-AFRICA FOR A LONG TIME (REGGANE).

MUSLIMS OCCUPIED THE HIGH ALPS FOR 3 CENTURIES AS PASTORAL NOMADS, HIGH ALPS BEING CONSIDERED A DESERT...

https://vioz.ch/uncategorized/grundsatzerklaerung/
LMAO, cool story bro.

Unfortunately they're called aquaduct, a Latin noun, for a reason. The Romans brought that technology with them a thousand years or more before any Saracenes robbed and murdered the Alpine pepole. While the term is usually used for brige-like structures nowadays, these are just the most obvious part of an entire system.

Oh, and nevermind the linguists, who strongly refuse the idea of etymological Saracene influence on, among others, location and mountain names in the Swiss Alps.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 23.08.2021, 02:07
mutabor's Avatar
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lenzburg
Posts: 8
Groaned at 5 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
mutabor has become a little unpopularmutabor has become a little unpopular
Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais

You've gotten it wrong

romans did not penetrate into side valleys at their time, in fact, much was not even populated back then.
Legions did create infrastructure but certainly not for alpine sheppards... In wood, but to fortify their garrisons.

What is interesting is that moors, e.g. Black africans, penetrated the main alpine arteries as mercenaries. St. Maurice is named after one of them (he was christian and martyred).

Much of switzerland, alpine to jura, was heavily influenced by muslims, tell, the national hero founder, a descendant of them, bearing a arab name (meaning heights, alpine muslims stayed as nomadic herders in the high alps) - as can be seen by the many names surviving from that time: Lake moor (murten), and many more mentioned by historians.

So, to make it short, you are wrong.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users groan at mutabor for this post:
  #9  
Old 23.08.2021, 04:18
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Frick, Aargau
Posts: 2,875
Groaned at 63 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 4,062 Times in 1,898 Posts
HickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais

Quote:
View Post
You've gotten it wrong

romans did not penetrate into side valleys at their time, in fact, much was not even populated back then.
Legions did create infrastructure but certainly not for alpine sheppards... In wood, but to fortify their garrisons.

What is interesting is that moors, e.g. Black africans, penetrated the main alpine arteries as mercenaries. St. Maurice is named after one of them (he was christian and martyred).

Much of switzerland, alpine to jura, was heavily influenced by muslims, tell, the national hero founder, a descendant of them, bearing a arab name (meaning heights, alpine muslims stayed as nomadic herders in the high alps) - as can be seen by the many names surviving from that time: Lake moor (murten), and many more mentioned by historians.

So, to make it short, you are wrong.
Older versions of the name Murten predates the life of Muhammad. "Muratum", 515 AD. Thought to be of Celtic origin.

https://hls-dhs-dss.ch/de/articles/001014/2019-04-03/

St. Maurice / Mauritz etc. was born in (Hellenised and subsequently Romanised) Egypt in the 3rd century AD - part of the classical world and not what most people would call a "black African".

That said, the tale of the Saracen invaders in Switzerland the 10th century, it is an interesting read. See https://www.jstor.org/stable/4057147...n_tab_contents. Frankly it seems they robbed and pillaged everywhere they went (as did pretty much everyone else in Europe at the time) but some probably settled permanently in the Valais following destruction of their fort in eastern France.

PS William Tell probably didnt exist at all. No contemporary records and the story about the Apple is taken verbatim from older literature e.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palnatoke. It's a General Germanic myth - also see from my home area - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Bell (oddly similar last name incidentally) which is more or less contemporary with William Tell stories.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 23.08.2021 at 06:07.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank HickvonFrick for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 23.08.2021, 18:53
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 3,297
Groaned at 40 Times in 40 Posts
Thanked 4,428 Times in 2,045 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais

Quote:
View Post
That said, the tale of the Saracen invaders in Switzerland the 10th century, it is an interesting read. See https://www.jstor.org/stable/4057147...n_tab_contents. Frankly it seems they robbed and pillaged everywhere they went (as did pretty much everyone else in Europe at the time) but some probably settled permanently in the Valais following destruction of their fort in eastern France.
Very interesting read, access to the gated article via Sci-Hub https://sci-hub.se/https://www.jstor.org/stable/4057147

There was a place named Frexinetum near comtemporary St-Tropez in France which was part of Al-Andalus. Saracens from there at some point (930?-970?) captured the Alpine passes and made them toll-roads

But...the Romans were fighting for the passes already 1000 years before. What's the chance the Romans forgot aqueducts and 1000 years later some guys occupying the passes for a few years brought water conveying technology?

Also, there's a limit in elevation where agriculture is possible. It's a little below the tree line, more or less at 2000 above sea level in the Alps. Above that elevation, water is useless, it's frozen most of time. So, did the Saracens produced their food up there in the passes, traded with people in the valleys or pillaged the valleys?

Last edited by Axa; 23.08.2021 at 19:15.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Axa for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 23.08.2021, 15:51
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Baselland
Posts: 539
Groaned at 18 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 685 Times in 338 Posts
LtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais

Quote:
View Post
WHAT THEY PROBABLY DID NOT TELL YOU:

THIS ANCIENT SUONEN TECHNOLOGY WAS BROUGHT BY MUSLIMS TO SWITZERLAND AROUND THE YEAR 1000, SINCE THEY HAVE BEEN USING IT IN THE DESERTS OF NORTH-AFRICA FOR A LONG TIME (REGGANE).

MUSLIMS OCCUPIED THE HIGH ALPS FOR 3 CENTURIES AS PASTORAL NOMADS, HIGH ALPS BEING CONSIDERED A DESERT...

https://vioz.ch/uncategorized/grundsatzerklaerung/

Quote:
View Post
You've gotten it wrong

romans did not penetrate into side valleys at their time, in fact, much was not even populated back then.
Legions did create infrastructure but certainly not for alpine sheppards... In wood, but to fortify their garrisons.

What is interesting is that moors, e.g. Black africans, penetrated the main alpine arteries as mercenaries. St. Maurice is named after one of them (he was christian and martyred).

Much of switzerland, alpine to jura, was heavily influenced by muslims, tell, the national hero founder, a descendant of them, bearing a arab name (meaning heights, alpine muslims stayed as nomadic herders in the high alps) - as can be seen by the many names surviving from that time: Lake moor (murten), and many more mentioned by historians.

So, to make it short, you are wrong.

Why don’t you go whole hog and confirm that these peaceful ambassadors of religious enlightenment also invented raclette while they were shivering on alpine pastures? Perhaps you also know where they imported their potatoes from?

Quote:
View Post
LMAO, cool story bro.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 23.08.2021, 12:17
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: SG
Posts: 9,305
Groaned at 482 Times in 362 Posts
Thanked 12,399 Times in 6,428 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais

Quote:
View Post
Much of switzerland, alpine to jura, was heavily influenced by muslims, tell, the national hero founder, a descendant of them, bearing a arab name (meaning heights, alpine muslims stayed as nomadic herders in the high alps) - as can be seen by the many names surviving from that time: Lake moor (murten), and many more mentioned by historians.
Sometimes the best thing to do is to quote yourself:
Quote:
View Post
LMAO, cool story bro.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 23.08.2021, 17:01
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Near Luzern
Posts: 1,853
Groaned at 147 Times in 85 Posts
Thanked 2,587 Times in 1,107 Posts
Patxi has a reputation beyond reputePatxi has a reputation beyond reputePatxi has a reputation beyond reputePatxi has a reputation beyond reputePatxi has a reputation beyond reputePatxi has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais

Quote:
View Post
Oh, and nevermind the linguists, who strongly refuse the idea of etymological Saracene influence on, among others, location and mountain names in the Swiss Alps.
I would be interested to read more about this. Any links that you suggest? From what I have seen, admittedly very little, I just believed the stories about some of the mountain/pass names in the Saastal and their arabic roots (Allalin, Mischabel, etc.,..).
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 23.08.2021, 17:12
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Baselland
Posts: 539
Groaned at 18 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 685 Times in 338 Posts
LtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais

The German entry is more detailed than the English one

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarazenen

Auch in denjenigen Fällen, in denen sich ein solches Toponym sprachlich tatsächlich aus dem Namen der Sarazenen herleiten lässt – wie speziell im Fall von Pontresina (1137–1139 als pons sarasina, 1303 als ponte sarracino belegt) und der Wasserleitung Bisse de Sarrazin im Walliser Vercorin – ist jedoch zu bedenken, dass im Hintergrund auch ein nicht oder nicht mehr ethnisch bedingter Personenname des namengebenden Erbauers oder Besitzers stehen kann oder eine allgemeinere Bedeutung wie „fremdartig, alt“. So schreibt das Historische Lexikon der Schweiz: „Der immer wieder postulierten arabischen Etymologie einiger Walliser Orts- und Bergnamen steht die linguistische Forschung ablehnend gegenüber.“

Even in those cases where such a toponym can actually be linguistically derived from the name of the Saracens - as especially in the case of Pontresina (1137-1139 as pons sarasina, 1303 as ponte sarracino attested) and the water conduit Bisse de Sarrazin in the Valais Vercorin - it must be considered, however, that in the background there can also be a personal name of the name-giving builder or owner that is not or no longer ethnically determined, or a more general meaning such as "strange, old". Thus, the Historical Dictionary of Switzerland writes: "The repeatedly postulated Arabic etymology of some Valais place and mountain names is opposed by linguistic research."

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 23.08.2021, 17:53
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Near Luzern
Posts: 1,853
Groaned at 147 Times in 85 Posts
Thanked 2,587 Times in 1,107 Posts
Patxi has a reputation beyond reputePatxi has a reputation beyond reputePatxi has a reputation beyond reputePatxi has a reputation beyond reputePatxi has a reputation beyond reputePatxi has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais

Quote:
View Post
The German entry is more detailed than the English one

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarazenen

Auch in denjenigen Fällen, in denen sich ein solches Toponym sprachlich tatsächlich aus dem Namen der Sarazenen herleiten lässt – wie speziell im Fall von Pontresina (1137–1139 als pons sarasina, 1303 als ponte sarracino belegt) und der Wasserleitung Bisse de Sarrazin im Walliser Vercorin – ist jedoch zu bedenken, dass im Hintergrund auch ein nicht oder nicht mehr ethnisch bedingter Personenname des namengebenden Erbauers oder Besitzers stehen kann oder eine allgemeinere Bedeutung wie „fremdartig, alt“. So schreibt das Historische Lexikon der Schweiz: „Der immer wieder postulierten arabischen Etymologie einiger Walliser Orts- und Bergnamen steht die linguistische Forschung ablehnend gegenüber.“

Even in those cases where such a toponym can actually be linguistically derived from the name of the Saracens - as especially in the case of Pontresina (1137-1139 as pons sarasina, 1303 as ponte sarracino attested) and the water conduit Bisse de Sarrazin in the Valais Vercorin - it must be considered, however, that in the background there can also be a personal name of the name-giving builder or owner that is not or no longer ethnically determined, or a more general meaning such as "strange, old". Thus, the Historical Dictionary of Switzerland writes: "The repeatedly postulated Arabic etymology of some Valais place and mountain names is opposed by linguistic research."

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Pretty weak references digging a little bit deeper. As best as I can see is that the etymology is "not confirmed" rather than "strongly refuted" as stated upthread. It doesn't seem that far-fetched to me especially given the numerous examples of arabesque names in the region.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 22.08.2021, 17:21
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Zurich
Posts: 71
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 66 Times in 37 Posts
SrkiKi has earned some respectSrkiKi has earned some respect
Re: Medieval glacial irrigation in Valais

There is a pretty easy hike from Crans-Montana to Lac de Tseuzier, where you can see the irrigation system just next to the hiking path. Well, you hike along the system. I think it is called Bisse Du Ro. Can be crowded though as it is not very demanding.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank SrkiKi for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Table Tennis, Valais or Close to Valais... SteAlka Sports / Fitness / Beauty / Wellness 0 05.12.2014 20:45
Medieval Dance Course Guest Other/general 1 28.10.2014 16:13
(ZH) Colonic Irrigation nelly579 Family matters/health 3 16.04.2013 19:12
Medieval morning Alice K Commercial events 0 13.06.2012 08:36
Colonic Irrigation Mongoose Family matters/health 10 16.07.2009 13:45


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:44.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0