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Old 12.10.2008, 19:04
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Stolen KABA key

I had my backpack stolen at an airport yesterday, and in it, among many other things, one of the keys to my apartment. The problem is not so much just that it's just "gone", the problem is that it was stolen with documents that basically tell the thief exactly where it goes... It was however stolen in another country (an island) so it's not like they can just waltz over and pay me a visit (hopefully).

The key is a KABA "Star" key, and despite searching online I can't find much info except that it's one of the more secure keys and so on.

I don't have a landlord, I own my apartment, but I do have a building management company that I assume has the secret "kaba key info" for making new keys etc.. oh, and the key goes to pretty much everything in the building, front door, washer, basement etc.

My question is;

Is it possible in a "Master key" system such as KABA to just change your own lock and no one else in the building has to worry? or is this one of those "uh oh, you're royally screwed now" things? I really only want to have to replace my own lock, but I'm getting worried after researching that it's such a complex key system etc that I will get slammed with 1000's in costs... or worse, replace everyone elses which I would never be able to afford.

Does anyone know more? Would love to hear it if so!
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Old 12.10.2008, 19:35
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Re: Stolen KABA key

You need to order a new key through your Verwaltung (management), they wont change all the external locks to the building and garage, only yours if you so desire.

KABA in English:
http://www.kaba.ch/en/20876_20876/index.html

KABA Star:
http://www.kaba.ch/en/Products-Solut...a-star_en.html
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Old 12.10.2008, 20:26
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Re: Stolen KABA key

You may very well be insured for this under your home insurance - we were.
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Old 12.10.2008, 22:38
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Re: Stolen KABA key

We also had a KABA key stolen that was in a backpack. The police were useless, they weren't even open on Saturday evening when it happened. We filled out a form, and then when some of the items from the wallet were found by someone in the river, we went to tell the police and they didn't even care.

We haven't done anything about the key yet...we are too scared to find out what it costs to replace as we've heard horror stories. Plus we figure, if another one gets lost or stolen, then we'll just have another bill and we can't afford that. So our new strategy is to just wait until we move out. Not sure if this is the right decision, but our insurance told us they won't cover it so we don't know what else to do.

What insurance covers this? Does anyone know? We have general household and liability insurance. I would think it would be under liability, but of course, the entire thing is in German and our agent told us they don't.

Good luck with yours and let us know what happens.
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Old 13.10.2008, 02:17
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Re: Stolen KABA key

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We also had a KABA key stolen that was in a backpack. The police were useless, they weren't even open on Saturday evening when it happened. We filled out a form, and then when some of the items from the wallet were found by someone in the river, we went to tell the police and they didn't even care.

We haven't done anything about the key yet...we are too scared to find out what it costs to replace as we've heard horror stories. Plus we figure, if another one gets lost or stolen, then we'll just have another bill and we can't afford that. So our new strategy is to just wait until we move out. Not sure if this is the right decision, but our insurance told us they won't cover it so we don't know what else to do.

What insurance covers this? Does anyone know? We have general household and liability insurance. I would think it would be under liability, but of course, the entire thing is in German and our agent told us they don't.

Good luck with yours and let us know what happens.
I think your strategy could backfire. If the stolen key is actually in the hands of the thief, and not floating in the river, since your details were in the backpack, the thief knows where you live, and has access to where you live. If the key opens common areas,(main door, laundry, etc) then this could affect the other tenants, not just you.

You will either have to pay now or pay later. There is really no way around this. Your lease likely states that you are responsible for the costs of replacing lost keys, and possibly locks, depending on the situation. If by some miracle your key gets washed up along a river bank and is found and somehow makes it's way back to you, then you would be off the hook. One can live in hope. Personally I prefer to feel safe in my own home and think my neighbours have the same right.

Who are you insured with, if you don't mind my asking?
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Old 13.10.2008, 07:37
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Re: Stolen KABA key

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I had my backpack stolen at an airport yesterday, and in it, among many other things, one of the keys to my apartment. The problem is not so much just that it's just "gone", the problem is that it was stolen with documents that basically tell the thief exactly where it goes... It was however stolen in another country (an island) so it's not like they can just waltz over and pay me a visit (hopefully).

The key is a KABA "Star" key, and despite searching online I can't find much info except that it's one of the more secure keys and so on.

I don't have a landlord, I own my apartment, but I do have a building management company that I assume has the secret "kaba key info" for making new keys etc.. oh, and the key goes to pretty much everything in the building, front door, washer, basement etc.

My question is;

Is it possible in a "Master key" system such as KABA to just change your own lock and no one else in the building has to worry? or is this one of those "uh oh, you're royally screwed now" things? I really only want to have to replace my own lock, but I'm getting worried after researching that it's such a complex key system etc that I will get slammed with 1000's in costs... or worse, replace everyone elses which I would never be able to afford.

Does anyone know more? Would love to hear it if so!
A Kaba star retails at CHF 205. In order to get another key you need to present your kaba key pass - a little blue credit card loooking thing. Then you can get another cut for CHF 40 per key... In your situation it depends on the kind of system you have and what the other people in the building have. You then have the way the building is run. Most common is to have an owners meeting to decide on such things. The one advantage of the Kaba Star system is that it is very secure so even though you are part of a key set your key will not open anything other than your entitlement. Better still if it were an electro Star...

In any case dependent on how far away that island is you can decide if you want to order another lock. In your situation I would do it and also order extra keys - they only cost CHF8 when ordered with the lock...
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Old 13.10.2008, 09:07
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Re: Stolen KABA key

There's really only one thing you can and should do in this situation: have your locks replaced. Give your home insurance agency a ring and check if this is covered. Make sure you tell them that this was a theft (you'll probably have to fax them the police report). They won't pay if they think you simply lost the key. As this is your own apartment, liability insurance won't cover that.

If they don't pay: let them know in writing (per signed letter) that you have informed them about the theft and that you can't replace the lock because of them. Otherwise, if someone empties your apartment using that key, they might refuse to pay. Technically, if someone has your key, it's not a break-in but simple theft - and that's usually not covered by your home insurance.

Also don't just assume that, because you were far away, nobody will use that key. Chances are they already sold the key to someone in Switzerland or some nearby country.

peter
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Old 13.10.2008, 15:08
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Re: Stolen KABA key

Thanks everyone for great info!

I called my Verwaltung as I agree that changing the locks is the only way when "they" have my address. The guy I spoke to was surprisingly straight forward, I half expected him to give me grief for some reason. I guess not having a landlord makes life a little eaiser.

He basically said they'll change the cylinder in the places where my key fits (3 places, apartment, mailbox and washer/dryer, he did not mention the front door to the building), and said the base cost was 250 CHF for a cylinder, and then a little more for a few more cylinders of the same kind.. A co-worker told me he had to do a similar replacement once and the total came to 600 CHF.. I am guessing my total will end up somewhere around there, as I need 3 new keys as well.

I'll make an update once I have the bill in hand, at least then I can put this ordeal behind me
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Old 13.10.2008, 15:20
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Re: Stolen KABA key

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A Kaba star retails at CHF 205. In order to get another key you need to present your kaba key pass - a little blue credit card loooking thing. Then you can get another cut for CHF 40 per key...
Thanks for the info Richard. I only got one Kaba star key for my garage, and now I need another as my wife and I share the car and syncronising who has the key when is turning into a logistical nightmare. The estate agent point blank refuses to give me another one (even if I pay), especially since the garage is not in my building. Is there anyway to copy this key by some other method?
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Old 13.10.2008, 15:23
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Re: Stolen KABA key

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Thanks everyone for great info!

I called my Verwaltung as I agree that changing the locks is the only way when "they" have my address. The guy I spoke to was surprisingly straight forward, I half expected him to give me grief for some reason. I guess not having a landlord makes life a little eaiser.

He basically said they'll change the cylinder in the places where my key fits (3 places, apartment, mailbox and washer/dryer, he did not mention the front door to the building), and said the base cost was 250 CHF for a cylinder, and then a little more for a few more cylinders of the same kind.. A co-worker told me he had to do a similar replacement once and the total came to 600 CHF.. I am guessing my total will end up somewhere around there, as I need 3 new keys as well.

I'll make an update once I have the bill in hand, at least then I can put this ordeal behind me
I guess your vacation will end up costing more than you expected, but I think you did the right thing here. Not sure why you expected grief, these things happen and dealing with putting things right is the way to handle it. Just wondering why, since you own your own apartment, you don't have the card for the key for your own front door? I guess it is different when you own a property (house) with no common areas, as we have the card. I need to order a Kaba cylinder for our new gate for our fence and I was told it would be 150 chf without installation and no additional keys. But I have to bring the card to order the cylinder. When we ordered the fence and gate we specified we wanted it made to fit a Kaba cylinder.
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Old 13.10.2008, 15:36
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Re: Stolen KABA key

Yeah, I assume it's the common areas that makes the Verwaltung have the KABA "blue card". Would definitely have been easier if I had that myself as I could do the labor manually (changing a cylinder - after all - isn't that hard), but oh well.

I think the biggest blow isn't so much the money (even though it hurts a bit to have to throw out that much for something like this) it's the fact that I let my backpack get stolen, it's a bit of an ego-blow for someone who is normally so attentive and rarely, if ever, loses anything.
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Old 13.10.2008, 15:46
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Re: Stolen KABA key

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Thanks for the info Richard. I only got one Kaba star key for my garage, and now I need another as my wife and I share the car and syncronising who has the key when is turning into a logistical nightmare. The estate agent point blank refuses to give me another one (even if I pay), especially since the garage is not in my building. Is there anyway to copy this key by some other method?
Actually no there is not. Kaba do two types of key, standard and secure. With the standard you go along to the local Kaba agent (see the website) and ask for a copy, with the secure, ie Star, 20 or Gemini, you need to be the authorised signatory. This means you filled in the registration form and have your name and signatory left with Kaba or you have the little blue card with your name on and can prove who you are.

Now it could be that the estate agent actually does not have the rights to get a new one cut... What would he do if you say you were on the boat in Zurisee and watched in amazement as your garagekey slipped out of your hand to the bottom of the lake?!
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Old 23.11.2008, 02:02
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Re: Stolen KABA key

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Actually no there is not. Kaba do two types of key, standard and secure. With the standard you go along to the local Kaba agent (see the website) and ask for a copy, with the secure, ie Star, 20 or Gemini, you need to be the authorised signatory. This means you filled in the registration form and have your name and signatory left with Kaba or you have the little blue card with your name on and can prove who you are.
Kaba 8 is the key that can be copied at Mister Minit, for example, no questions asked. The cost of a cylinder with 3 Kaba 8 keys is half of the cost of the Kaba star system, for example, at least that was what we were quoted today.
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Old 23.11.2008, 10:54
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Re: Stolen KABA key

As an update, I had all my locks replaced in the end (Kaba Star), and I had to change out 4 cylinders (door, basement, laundry, storage).

I asked the guy that replaced them what it would cost and he said "oh, about 250 CHF, and a little more for the other ones".. I figured that meant "250 + 100" or something.. Then I got the bill, and it turns out it was 250 per cylinder and some of them cost a bit more, say 260, 270 CHF.. I had half a heart attack staring at that bill, and the total - with labor - came to ~1100 CHF. I'm still hurting every time I think about it.

But the deed is done at least, and I guess it's a "small price" to sleep easy.

I suppose it's rare that people need to change locks because of a lost key, as mostly a lost key does not say where the address of that key is, but if someone has the unfortune of having to replace them, there's the cost!
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Old 23.11.2008, 12:35
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Re: Stolen KABA key

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As an update, I had all my locks replaced in the end (Kaba Star), and I had to change out 4 cylinders (door, basement, laundry, storage).

I asked the guy that replaced them what it would cost and he said "oh, about 250 CHF, and a little more for the other ones".. I figured that meant "250 + 100" or something.. Then I got the bill, and it turns out it was 250 per cylinder and some of them cost a bit more, say 260, 270 CHF.. I had half a heart attack staring at that bill, and the total - with labor - came to ~1100 CHF. I'm still hurting every time I think about it.

But the deed is done at least, and I guess it's a "small price" to sleep easy.

I suppose it's rare that people need to change locks because of a lost key, as mostly a lost key does not say where the address of that key is, but if someone has the unfortune of having to replace them, there's the cost!
As painful as it was for your wallet, I think you did the right thing. Were you able to submit the bill to your insurance company? Afterall, your backpack was stolen. Worth a try, I suppose.

The Kaba 8 cylinder with 3 keys was 98 chf. We were told the Kaba Star was more than double the cost. No point really as it was for an outside gate.
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Old 23.11.2008, 13:53
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Re: Stolen KABA key

Thanks for letting us know what happened. Next time someone asks the same sort of question, we can get them sat down with a cup of camomile tea and break the news to them gently...
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Old 14.02.2010, 15:18
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Re: Stolen KABA key

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Also don't just assume that, because you were far away, nobody will use that key. Chances are they already sold the key to someone in Switzerland or some nearby country.
Fascinating though the idea is, it is not something to worry about.

There is not an international market in key and address details. The obstacles to this market would be insurmountable
* It's illegal, so you can't set up a public forum to "find a thief" or sell it through ebay
* Buyers and sellers are both thieves, so no one will trust the other for cash or goods in advance
* Language - most carribbean thieves don't speak swiss-german
* It would be easy to fabricate address details for a stolen key, or find a key to match address details, but impossible and illegal to verify them.
* Shipping costs and time (and customs duty? )
* Risk of getting caught
* Risk of travelling from a nearby country - say Austria, arriving in Zurich, and discovering the locks have been changed. What a downer!

I think it's a bit paranoid to concern yourself with this scenario.
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Old 14.02.2010, 15:34
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Re: Stolen KABA key

Just a tip regarding having your keys stolen and the thief knowing where you live... If you have a GPS in the car set "Home" to be say your home town and not your precise address. There have been cases of a thief stealing a car with the keys and setting the GPS to "take me home" so they can steal from the house as well.... And you know your way anyway from your home town to home so it's not really necessary to put in your exact address.
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Old 14.02.2010, 15:58
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Re: Stolen KABA key

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Just a tip regarding having your keys stolen and the thief knowing where you live... If you have a GPS in the car set "Home" to be say your home town and not your precise address. There have been cases of a thief stealing a car with the keys and setting the GPS to "take me home" so they can steal from the house as well.... And you know your way anyway from your home town to home so it's not really necessary to put in your exact address.


Interesting point but if they gain access to the car it surely makes no difference what the GPS says. All they'd need to do is find the cars papers Your address is written on there as well
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Old 18.04.2010, 00:31
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Re: Stolen KABA key

if the theif knows your license plate, which ofcourse he will after stealing the car he can find where you live:

http://www.stva.zh.ch/internet/ds/st...ild_index.html

strange Swiss confidentiality rules!!



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Just a tip regarding having your keys stolen and the thief knowing where you live... If you have a GPS in the car set "Home" to be say your home town and not your precise address. There have been cases of a thief stealing a car with the keys and setting the GPS to "take me home" so they can steal from the house as well.... And you know your way anyway from your home town to home so it's not really necessary to put in your exact address.
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