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  #21  
Old 11.11.2020, 14:19
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Re: Looking for Flat Plugs for extension cords.

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Not the ones I've seen:

Attachment 140631

The T12 on the left is basically shallower by the depth of the T13 recess. No way a T13 could be that shallow, the pins would stick out the back of the housing!

It isn't always a problem, but it's very tight if you have five or six WAGO connectors also in the back of the wall recess.
Damn… I was guessing something like this. I guess I need to measure the full plug before doing anything. It's a little bit a pain in the ask since I have to take it out in full.
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Old 11.11.2020, 14:36
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Re: Looking for Flat Plugs for extension cords.

Well I just measure the hole inserting the screwer on the side of the plug —after unmount the lid, of course—and seems that it's 50mm. I've checked a couple of them on coop and seems that exactly the deep of those T13 sockets.
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  #23  
Old 11.11.2020, 14:48
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Re: Looking for Flat Plugs for extension cords.

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Well I just measure the hole inserting the screwer on the side of the plug —after unmount the lid, of course—and seems that it's 50mm. I've checked a couple of them on coop and seems that exactly the deep of those T13 sockets.
50mm is probably the depth required rather than the actual depth of the socket, and 50mm is the depth of a standard installation box.

The socket I have here is 35mm deep from the back of the mounting plate, giving 15mm behind for cables and connectors.

Unfortunately the older wall boxes aren't always so deep, or very wide. Mine seem to be 45mm which is really tight; I've had to shorten cables and use more modern WAGO connectors to make space, and a couple had to get the chisel treatment because at least one had three channels coming in with 13 cables:

- live x 3
- neutral x 3
- earth x 3
- light 1 x 2
- light 2 x 2

And that's a double light switch + socket combi which is already a bit deeper
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Old 11.11.2020, 14:58
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Re: Looking for Flat Plugs for extension cords.

Thanks a lot for the info. I really appreciated!

We have a small boy that is starting to move around the house right now. We are trying to make everything baby proof, and outlets are a big issue. The T12 outlet does't look really safe even if we use baby proofing. Perhaps I'll start a campaign to change some of the old style outlets around the house.
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Old 11.11.2020, 15:08
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Re: Looking for Flat Plugs for extension cords.

In the meantime you can use the baby protectors from Ikea on the lower mounted outlets.

To make sure s/he can't get them off with the little fingers put some double backed tape (foam version) from Tesa that will keep them in place. You find the tape in all the brico stores. When you need to take them off in the future you will need to slide a knife behind the protector to peel it off gently.

Tesa link: https://www.tesa.com/fr-ch/grand-pub...-le-metal.html
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  #26  
Old 11.11.2020, 15:19
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Re: Looking for Flat Plugs for extension cords.

If you're covering up a socket with furniture and don't have much space then you can simply wire in a line of appropriate cable and use it like a junction box, changing the cover if you want to.
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Old 11.11.2020, 16:02
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Re: Looking for Flat Plugs for extension cords.

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If you're covering up a socket with furniture and don't have much space then you can simply wire in a line of appropriate cable and use it like a junction box, changing the cover if you want to.
On this topic, any idea where I can get standard size blanking plates with the notch in the bottom to allow cable egress?

(The ones where the bottom edge has an arch in it, not the ones with a hole where the cable sticks straight out).

Can't find them anywhere, I'm guessing they're not really allowed any more?
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  #28  
Old 11.11.2020, 16:12
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Re: Looking for Flat Plugs for extension cords.

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Can't find them anywhere, I'm guessing they're not really allowed any more?
Like this?
https://www.agro.ch/de_CH/produkte/e...al-9010?c=1654

If im not mistaken you are not allowed to use flexible cables and it must go the an other fix installed socket, box, or light.
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  #29  
Old 11.11.2020, 16:15
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Re: Looking for Flat Plugs for extension cords.

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Like this?
https://www.agro.ch/de_CH/produkte/e...al-9010?c=1654

If im not mistaken you are not allowed to use flexible cables and it must go the an other fix installed socket, box, or light.
Yes but this is an industrial size 130mm cover, not a ca. 85mm domestic one.
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  #30  
Old 11.11.2020, 17:05
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Re: Looking for Flat Plugs for extension cords.

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There is enough space, the T12 and T13 are about the same depth, I replaced several last year for RASI.

Tom
RASI made you replace existing T12s? That's a new one on me. Who was the inspector? I just had a complete RASI according to NIBT 2020 and the (2!) T12s in the entire house were not mentioned.

Horrible things T12s though.... The only ones I have are inside cupboards and not used or easily accessible.
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  #31  
Old 11.11.2020, 17:13
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Re: Looking for Flat Plugs for extension cords.

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Thanks a lot for the info. I really appreciated!

We have a small boy that is starting to move around the house right now. We are trying to make everything baby proof, and outlets are a big issue. The T12 outlet does't look really safe even if we use baby proofing. Perhaps I'll start a campaign to change some of the old style outlets around the house.
You can get shuttered T13s to be extra safe. I put them in my kids bedrooms to minimize the risk of them shoving metal things into them! Although to be honest the RCD probably makes it safe enough. If you have T12 sockets you might not even have RCD protection. Check that out first, and if you're unlucky enough to not have them, prepare for a world of financial pain...

https://elektro-zollinger.ch/Shop/St..._13_1x_Shutter
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  #32  
Old 11.11.2020, 17:20
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Re: Looking for Flat Plugs for extension cords.

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RASI made you replace existing T12s?
You might need T13 at certain spots.

T13 are mandatory only for new builds or replacements since 2017.
http://toolbox.electrosuisse.ch/_fil...richtungen.pdf
http://toolbox.electrosuisse.ch/_fil...richtungen.pdf
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Old 11.11.2020, 17:23
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RASI made you replace existing T12s? That's a new one on me. Who was the inspector? I just had a complete RASI according to NIBT 2020 and the (2!) T12s in the entire house were not mentioned.
Our chalet has a variety of 'standards' of wiring and sockets, some of it predating even the T12, but it passed an inspection before we bought it (afterwards, actually, as they had to come back to do some remedial work highlighted).

TBH I'm amazed at some of the stuff that's allowed, like whole rafts of circuitry with no separation of Earth and Neutral, i.e. the sockets just wire the earth connector direct to the Neutral. And this includes both old and (relatively) new sockets and lighting.

I was assured by the inspector that it was a) legal and b) safe. All circuits are protected by various breakers, some (high-current, and/or 3 phase) apparently doubled up with two types thereof, so I guess the required protection is there.

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T13 are mandatory only for new builds or replacements since 2017.
"Replacement" being the operative word. Refitting is still allowed, as per my experience.
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  #34  
Old 11.11.2020, 17:26
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Re: Looking for Flat Plugs for extension cords.

They used to make these flat plugs for t12, but since T12 is out, these are very difficult to find.

https://www.ricardo.ch/de/a/steko-wi...rz-1086600834/
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Old 11.11.2020, 18:32
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Re: Looking for Flat Plugs for extension cords.

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TBH I'm amazed at some of the stuff that's allowed, like whole rafts of circuitry with no separation of Earth and Neutral, i.e. the sockets just wire the earth connector direct to the Neutral. And this includes both old and (relatively) new sockets and lighting.
yeah its allowed as long as its not modified. they judge it against the standards at the time of construction. that's why i was surprised Tom was required to change type 12 sockets. the main problem for me is, back then they just used breakers and not RCDs. I just wasn't comfortable not having RCDs on garden and socket circuits so I ended up re doing the whole house, over 40 circuits, with new type A 'swiss homologated' RCBO's. came across no end of dodgy stuff (PE/N joined, crossed Ns, insufficient wire sizes, missing PEs, lack of water ingress protection etc and had to re label/colour everything. I did it myself and then had an electrician sign off for the separate RASI (which picked up a few more minor issues). It still cost a lot as each RCBO is 100-150 CHF but I think it would be a 20-30k project if you had an electrician do everything.
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Old 11.11.2020, 19:12
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Re: Looking for Flat Plugs for extension cords.

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y the main problem for me is, back then they just used breakers and not RCDs. .
Breaker and RCDs are two different things and neither does the job of the other.
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Old 11.11.2020, 20:19
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Re: Looking for Flat Plugs for extension cords.

Thanks for the education!
Rcbo does both....
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  #38  
Old 11.11.2020, 21:17
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Re: Looking for Flat Plugs for extension cords.

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Breaker and RCDs are two different things and neither does the job of the other.
Yeah, he wrote that his problem 'back then' was they used only breakers without any RCDs, not instead of RCDs.
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Old 11.11.2020, 21:34
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Re: Looking for Flat Plugs for extension cords.

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They used to make these flat plugs for t12, but since T12 is out, these are very difficult to find.

https://www.ricardo.ch/de/a/steko-wi...rz-1086600834/
I had a couple of those - awful idea, basically two dodgy T12 sockets in one, and with one facing down so the final plug has a tendency to fall out.
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  #40  
Old 11.11.2020, 22:10
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Re: Looking for Flat Plugs for extension cords.

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I had a couple of those - awful idea, basically two dodgy T12 sockets in one, and with one facing down so the final plug has a tendency to fall out.
worked well for me. It sticks out only by about 2cm on a T12 socket, compared to about 5cm for the newer T13 version on a T12 socket.

Hard to find though. So I am slowly switching all my sockets to T13.
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