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Old 01.03.2011, 11:11
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Really strange way of counting your years of stay in CH

Hi Everyone,

I recently contacted Migrationsamt to apply for early C Permit.
The law basicaly just says "after 5 years of uninterrupted stay in Switzerland.. " you can apply for early C permit if you satisfy certain requirements.

What Migrationsamt wrote me in an email is that they only count these 5 years towards a C Permit, AFTER my workpermit has turned into an "unbefriestet".. in other words "unlimited". This seems to be an utter BS to me. I've only received my unlimited workpermit last year.. and I've been working here since 5 years! they say they will start counting my accumulated years only as of the date I received an unlimited workpermit.

She also says I can only apply for C Permit in 2020.. like 14 years after I moved to Switzerland (I am a non EU Pass holder). this doesnt make sense! So she adds 10 years on top of 2010 when I received my unlimited work permit for the first time.

Does this make any sense at all to anyone?
Baris
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  #2  
Old 01.03.2011, 11:13
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Re: Really strange way of counting your years of stay in CH

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Hi Everyone,

I recently contacted Migrationsamt to apply for early C Permit.
The law basicaly just says "after 5 years of uninterrupted stay in Switzerland.. " you can apply for early C permit if you satisfy certain requirements.

What Migrationsamt wrote me in an email is that they only count these 5 years towards a C Permit, AFTER my workpermit has turned into an "unbefriestet".. in other words "unlimited". This seems to be an utter BS to me. I've only received my unlimited workpermit last year.. and I've been working here since 5 years! they say they will start counting my accumulated years only as of the date I received an unlimited workpermit.

She also says I can only apply for C Permit in 2020.. like 14 years after I moved to Switzerland (I am a non EU Pass holder). this doesnt make sense! So she adds 10 years on top of 2010 when I received my unlimited work permit for the first time.

Does this make any sense at all to anyone?
Baris
It makes sense to her, and she has the rubber stamp.
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  #3  
Old 01.03.2011, 11:22
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Re: Really strange way of counting your years of stay in CH

yeah and there is no clear law in this country that explains all this?
I've never seen such BS info anywhere in any migration law in CH.

So it's all up to the officer who may suddenly decides counting my years in CH since.. lets say, the first time I had a swiss girlfriend? or since the first time I joked about all the swiss kids wearing an orange triangle on the way to school? ..
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Old 01.03.2011, 11:56
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Re: Really strange way of counting your years of stay in CH

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She also says I can only apply for C Permit in 2020.. like 14 years after I moved to Switzerland (I am a non EU Pass holder). this doesnt make sense! So she adds 10 years on top of 2010 when I received my unlimited work permit for the first time.

Does this make any sense at all to anyone?
Baris
I believe the five-year residency requirement for a C permit is only for EU and US citizens. Everyone else has a ten-year requirement (yes, I know it is rather discriminatory). So she may be right. That doesn't explain why the first four years didn't count, but it depends on what kind of permit you had for those years. Normally a B permit is required.
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Old 01.03.2011, 12:02
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Re: Really strange way of counting your years of stay in CH

It's only as discriminatory as Swiss citizens being allowed to vote and non-Swiss not. It's to do with international agreements - not treating non-EU, non-US as lower forms of life.

To the OP - if you want a definitive answer, consult an immigration lawyer. It'll cost maybe a couple of hundred francs, but then you'd be sure. Clerks are not always aware of exactly what the laws mean!
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Old 01.03.2011, 13:32
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Re: Really strange way of counting your years of stay in CH

Well, South Africans have to wait 13 years in order to apply for a C permit and even if they are married to an EU passport holder who has a C permit, they still need to wait 13 years... For our family it hasn't really made much difference with one of us having a C and the other a B.. Lucky I guess. Cool thing though, both of our kids were born here and they were given C's.
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Old 01.03.2011, 13:41
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Re: Really strange way of counting your years of stay in CH

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It's only as discriminatory as Swiss citizens being allowed to vote and non-Swiss not. It's to do with international agreements - not treating non-EU, non-US as lower forms of life.
The right to vote for citizens only is well-accepted practice and non-controversial. However, residency requirements that depend on one's nationality is not standard practice at least among EU countries and the US. So why would they be favoured? Call it what you want, but non-EU/non-US people will consider this as discrimination.
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Old 01.03.2011, 14:08
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Re: Really strange way of counting your years of stay in CH

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The law basicaly just says "after 5 years of uninterrupted stay in Switzerland.. " you can apply for early C permit if you satisfy certain requirements.
Get your facts right. The law actually says (art 34. al.4):

Quote:
Sie kann bei erfolgreicher Integration, namentlich wenn die betroffene Person über
gute Kenntnisse einer Landessprache verfügt, nach ununterbrochenem Aufenthalt
mit Aufenthaltsbewilligung während der letzten fünf Jahre erteilt werden.
where the term Aufenthaltsbewilligung excludes short term permits.

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Does this make any sense at all to anyone?
Baris
Yep, that's correct. Years spent on a student permit do not count either. Applicable legislation: AuG, art. 34, al. 2. lit a. As you say yourself - you can get it "if you satisfy certain requirements"...
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Old 01.03.2011, 15:05
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Re: Really strange way of counting your years of stay in CH

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However, residency requirements that depend on one's nationality is not standard practice at least among EU countries and the US.
Are you sure about that?

As a Brit I can live and work in any EU country. Non EU citizens cannot - unless they are Swiss.

Switzerland has a bilateral agreement with the EU. That means a non-EU Swiss person has the same rights as me in EU states.

Very standard practice .
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Old 01.03.2011, 15:07
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Re: Really strange way of counting your years of stay in CH

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yeah and there is no clear law in this country that explains all this?
I've never seen such BS info anywhere in any migration law in CH.
Ignorance is no defence as they say. It is clearly stated in law.
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Old 01.03.2011, 16:57
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Re: Really strange way of counting your years of stay in CH

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Get your facts right. The law actually says (art 34. al.4):




where the term Aufenthaltsbewilligung excludes short term permits.



Yep, that's correct. Years spent on a student permit do not count either. Applicable legislation: AuG, art. 34, al. 2. lit a. As you say yourself - you can get it "if you satisfy certain requirements"...
I think it is also worth saying that the interpretation and application of this law is in the hands of the respective cantons. Luzern for example are rather open to this at least according to the nice guy who heads the migrationsamt in interview.
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Old 01.03.2011, 17:57
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Re: Really strange way of counting your years of stay in CH

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Are you sure about that?

As a Brit I can live and work in any EU country. Non EU citizens cannot - unless they are Swiss.

Switzerland has a bilateral agreement with the EU. That means a non-EU Swiss person has the same rights as me in EU states.

Very standard practice .
Let me be more precise. Yes EU and CH has the bilateral agreement mainly because the EU hopes that one day CH will truly be a part of the EU. So for all intents and purposes the two entities are one.

What I am referring to are immigrant citizens from other countries (outside Europe). For some reason US citizens are treated differently in Switzerland compared to say Japanese, South Africans, etc. But in the EU countries, US citizens would be treated the same as other non-EU citizens in regards to residency requirements. What is practised here in Switzerland is not standard (in my opinion, discriminatory). All non-EU B permit holders should be treated equally and I believe five years is enough.
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Old 01.03.2011, 18:22
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Re: Really strange way of counting your years of stay in CH

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Let me be more precise. Yes EU and CH has the bilateral agreement mainly because the EU hopes that one day CH will truly be a part of the EU. So for all intents and purposes the two entities are one.
Fiction.

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What I am referring to are immigrant citizens from other countries (outside Europe). For some reason US citizens are treated differently in Switzerland compared to say Japanese, South Africans, etc. But in the EU countries, US citizens would be treated the same as other non-EU citizens in regards to residency requirements. What is practised here in Switzerland is not standard (in my opinion, discriminatory).
Fiction.

In actual fact you will find residency requirements are often agreed upon in bilateral treaties between states, which are bound to vary.

Practical study - compare the US - French to the Venezuelan - French establishment treaty.
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Old 01.03.2011, 18:28
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Re: Really strange way of counting your years of stay in CH

Hi Baris,

I truly and really sympathize with you. Yes, it's a two-tiered system, and it's not easy if you're not EU (I'm non-EU, too). I understand when people say to deal with it, that's just how it is, but sometimes it's hard not to stress out about your permit and long-term perspectives, especially when you see people who don't have to give it another thought because they were born in a different country.
But it's like that in many other countries where a lot of people want to live and work - the US comes to mind.

In any case, were you on a "befristete" B for the last five years, or were you on an L for some time too? I knew that years on an L permit did not count, but I thought years on a B permit (non-student ones) counted. Now I know better, I guess.
Good luck to you!
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Old 01.03.2011, 18:47
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Re: Really strange way of counting your years of stay in CH

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Let me be more precise. Yes EU and CH has the bilateral agreement mainly because the EU hopes that one day CH will truly be a part of the EU. So for all intents and purposes the two entities are one.
You're way out there. they have the bilateral agreements because they know that Switzerland will never join the EU - only possibility might be if the EU drops the Euro requirement but even then I seriously doubt it.

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What I am referring to are immigrant citizens from other countries (outside Europe). For some reason US citizens are treated differently in Switzerland compared to say Japanese, South Africans, etc. But in the EU countries, US citizens would be treated the same as other non-EU citizens in regards to residency requirements. What is practised here in Switzerland is not standard (in my opinion, discriminatory). All non-EU B permit holders should be treated equally and I believe five years is enough.
Canadians also have a better deal in Switzerland. However, thîs is due to bilateral agreements with those states.

If you believe that a US citizen immigrating into the UK is treated the same as a Columbian then you're kidding yourself . At least the Swiss are open about it.
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Old 01.03.2011, 23:45
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Re: Really strange way of counting your years of stay in CH

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Get your facts right. The law actually says (art 34. al.4):




where the term Aufenthaltsbewilligung excludes short term permits.



Yep, that's correct. Years spent on a student permit do not count either. Applicable legislation: AuG, art. 34, al. 2. lit a. As you say yourself - you can get it "if you satisfy certain requirements"...
I always had a B permit since the day I moved to Switzerland. I was never on a L or anything else. I had a regular B permit since the first day with workpermit. I was never on a training program or short term assingment. That's why this all doesnt make sense.
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Old 01.03.2011, 23:52
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Re: Really strange way of counting your years of stay in CH

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Let me be more precise. Yes EU and CH has the bilateral agreement mainly because the EU hopes that one day CH will truly be a part of the EU. So for all intents and purposes the two entities are one.
No, they are not.

And I became Swiss so that I could do my part to see that that never happens (i.e. VOTE)

Tom
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Old 02.03.2011, 00:04
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Re: Really strange way of counting your years of stay in CH

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I always had a B permit since the day I moved to Switzerland. I was never on a L or anything else. I had a regular B permit since the first day with workpermit. I was never on a training program or short term assingment. That's why this all doesnt make sense.
You have been given the wrong information.
I am non-EU, and got my C after about 7 years on the annual B.
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Old 02.03.2011, 00:04
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Re: Really strange way of counting your years of stay in CH

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And I became Swiss so that I could do my part to see that that never happens (i.e. VOTE)
Considering what has passed so far, it's already too late, Tom.
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Old 02.03.2011, 00:32
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Re: Really strange way of counting your years of stay in CH

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Fiction.
Meh... On the first point, there are over 200 treaties with the EU covering a wide range of subjects. We are as close to the EU as we can get without being a member. So as I said, "for all intents and purposes"...

On the second point, I am sure there are exceptions, but the point is that these exceptions ARE discriminatory just like the Swiss 5-or-10 rule. The right way to treat immigrants is to deal with them consistently and equally. I eventually got French permanent residency and I was not treated differently. As for the US, I believe the US green card takes two years for everyone.
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