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  #21  
Old 07.03.2011, 07:31
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Re: Bern proposes changes to citizenship law

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Thanks for this! The page tells us,


And if my understanding is correct, it translates to "the only real improvement in the proposal of the Bundesrat, the requirement of a settlement permit (C permit) for naturalisation ..." - so I guess that indeed, part of the proposal to the change is the need to have a C permit to be eligible for naturalisation? Should I, a non-EU carte de legitimation holder, bid farewell to my chances of applying for citizenship?
And just when I was less than two years away from accumulating the number of years necessary for naturalization as a carte de legitimation holder...
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  #22  
Old 07.03.2011, 07:58
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Re: Bern proposes changes to citizenship law

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The project (french & german) mentions the 8 years under:

- Article 9.b

there are more details on the requirements and what is calculated or not in the duration of stay.
If you open the second document MrVertigo provided here, Article 33 mentions that years spent on the carte de legitimation count toward the requirement. It doesn't specifically mention student permits, however.
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  #23  
Old 07.03.2011, 09:21
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Re: Bern proposes changes to citizenship law

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If you open the second document MrVertigo provided here, Article 33 mentions that years spent on the carte de legitimation count toward the requirement. It doesn't specifically mention student permits, however.
You're right - the document does mention the carte de legitimation. Thank you for pointing this out, gave me a huge sigh of relief!

Last edited by PierreMarie; 07.03.2011 at 09:55.
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  #24  
Old 07.03.2011, 09:31
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Re: Bern proposes changes to citizenship law

Years spent on student permit definitely count towards the existing 12-year residency requirement. This has been confirmed to me not only by a very competent lawyer, but also by the example of numerous non-EU students in Geneva, who obtained Swiss citizenship by meeting the residency requirement through a sequence of high school and university studies. The same also applies to holders of carde de legitimation.

The key difference is that, while years spent on Student Permit B count towards the 12-year residency requirement, they do not count towards the 10-year Permit C requirement. As a result, a student who has been here for 12 years can get the passport, but not the Permit C.

By making Permit C a condition for naturalization, the new law eliminates the possibility for students to become Swiss citizens. Moreover, because Permit B is a precondition for Permit C, and because Permit B is extremely hard to obtain for non-EU nationals, the new law effectively removes one recourse for non-EUs to become naturalized. On the other hand, because Permit Bs are quite easy to obtain for EU nationals, the law will benefit them considerably.
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  #25  
Old 07.03.2011, 09:33
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Re: Bern proposes changes to citizenship law

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If you open the second document MrVertigo provided here, Article 33 mentions that years spent on the carte de legitimation count toward the requirement. It doesn't specifically mention student permits, however.
Thank you for that - since my French and German aren't so great, could you clarify whether carte de legitimation counts - or will count - towards the Permit C residency requirement as well as the naturalization requirement?

In other words, under the new law, can one spend five years on a carte de legitimation and become eligible for Permit C?
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  #26  
Old 07.03.2011, 09:54
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Re: Bern proposes changes to citizenship law

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Years spent on student permit definitely count towards the existing 12-year residency requirement. This has been confirmed to me not only by a very competent lawyer, but also by the example of numerous non-EU students in Geneva, who obtained Swiss citizenship by meeting the residency requirement through a sequence of high school and university studies. The same also applies to holders of carde de legitimation.

The key difference is that, while years spent on Student Permit B count towards the 12-year residency requirement, they do not count towards the 10-year Permit C requirement. As a result, a student who has been here for 12 years can get the passport, but not the Permit C.

By making Permit C a condition for naturalization, the new law eliminates the possibility for students to become Swiss citizens. Moreover, because Permit B is a precondition for Permit C, and because Permit B is extremely hard to obtain for non-EU nationals, the new law effectively removes one recourse for non-EUs to become naturalized. On the other hand, because Permit Bs are quite easy to obtain for EU nationals, the law will benefit them considerably.
So I guess that by the time one applies for naturalisation, he must already have the C permit ("autorisation de séjour ou d'établissement") - which means that even if I've fulfilled the eight years of stay here but only under a carte de legitimation (and not a C permit, even if years spent on the carte do count towards the eight years), I still wouldn't be eligible?
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  #27  
Old 07.03.2011, 10:02
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Re: Bern proposes changes to citizenship law

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So I guess that by the time one applies for naturalisation, he must already have the C permit ("autorisation de séjour ou d'établissement") - which means that even if I've fulfilled the eight years of stay here but only under a carte de legitimation (and not a C permit, even if years spent on the carte do count towards the eight years), I still wouldn't be eligible?
the main point is that permit C can be obtained after 5-8 years if good integration (language knowledge + stable situation); then you can apply immediately for citizenship even if you have the C permit for just 1 year. The application must be filed after completing the 8 years (not before & not during the 8th year)
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  #28  
Old 07.03.2011, 10:03
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Re: Bern proposes changes to citizenship law

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Thank you for that - since my French and German aren't so great, could you clarify whether carte de legitimation counts - or will count - towards the Permit C residency requirement as well as the naturalization requirement?

In other words, under the new law, can one spend five years on a carte de legitimation and become eligible for Permit C?
just an advice: learn from now either french or german. It's going to be an important criteria in giving C permit or citizenship.

Another point: for the moment it's a project from federal authority that needs to be discussed by parliament and there will be for sure vote request by the population. So all in all it may take more than 1 year i suspect before it gets applied in its final form.
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  #29  
Old 07.03.2011, 11:55
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Re: Bern proposes changes to citizenship law

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the main point is that permit C can be obtained after 5-8 years if good integration (language knowledge + stable situation); then you can apply immediately for citizenship even if you have the C permit for just 1 year. The application must be filed after completing the 8 years (not before & not during the 8th year)
Thank you!
But the C permit is still a requirement under the new law, is it not? And as far as I know the years under a carte de legitimation don't count towards a C permit...
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  #30  
Old 07.03.2011, 11:58
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Re: Bern proposes changes to citizenship law

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Years spent on a student B permit do not count towards any naturalisation requirement so the proposed change makes no difference.
Incorrect.
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  #31  
Old 07.03.2011, 12:04
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Re: Bern proposes changes to citizenship law

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Another point: for the moment it's a project from federal authority that needs to be discussed by parliament and there will be for sure vote request by the population. So all in all it may take more than 1 year i suspect before it gets applied in its final form.
I also hope that the law will not be applied retroactively (logically, it shouldn't be) - meaning that it will only apply to residents entering Switzerland after a certain year. There is precedent for thiso in other naturalization-related legislation, I think. As a result, folks like myself and Pierre Marie will likely be subject to current naturalization rules regardless of whether and when the proposed changes come into effect.
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  #32  
Old 07.03.2011, 12:54
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Re: Bern proposes changes to citizenship law

Why would you want to become "naturalised"?
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  #33  
Old 07.03.2011, 13:32
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Re: Bern proposes changes to citizenship law

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Why would you want to become "naturalised"?
Because being a non-EU national in Switzerland is NOT fun - at all
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  #34  
Old 07.03.2011, 13:44
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Re: Bern proposes changes to citizenship law

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Why would you want to become "naturalised"?
For me because I want to be able to vote. I'm 14 months off my 12 years and very much doubt such legislation would come in within that period.
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  #35  
Old 07.03.2011, 19:38
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Re: Bern proposes changes to citizenship law

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Why would you want to become "naturalised"?
So I can collect my 3rd passport (and first EU/EFTA citizenship)... with the new law in place, naturalization is only 3 years away!
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  #36  
Old 07.03.2011, 21:24
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Re: Bern proposes changes to citizenship law

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Actually, years spent on student permit do count towards the 12 year naturalization requirement - this is, in fact, how so many students who come here and attend a sequence of international schools, undergraduate, and graduate studies obtain their passports (the above takes about 12 years).

But you're right in that they do not count towards Permit C.
Depicts exactly the actual situation.


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Yup, but if Permit C becomes the prerequisite for naturalization, then students and staff members of international organizations will be, ahem, screwed?
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What I am concerned about is that, for non-EUs, Cs are virtually impossible to obtain because they require you to hold a permit B which allows you to work. Instead, what non-EUs were able to do, however, is to apply for citizenship on the basis of 12 years of study or work with an international organization bypassing the C requirement completely. If that is closed off, then naturalization becomes even less possible for non-EUs than it currently is.
Fear that you got that right.


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I also hope that the law will not be applied retroactively (logically, it shouldn't be) - meaning that it will only apply to residents entering Switzerland after a certain year. There is precedent for thiso in other naturalization-related legislation, I think. As a result, folks like myself and Pierre Marie will likely be subject to current naturalization rules regardless of whether and when the proposed changes come into effect.
Let's hope so.


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Another point: for the moment it's a project from federal authority that needs to be discussed by parliament and there will be for sure vote request by the population. So all in all it may take more than 1 year i suspect before it gets applied in its final form.
Anybody other information on when the changes will be legalized?


Thanks
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  #37  
Old 07.03.2011, 23:53
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Re: Bern proposes changes to citizenship law

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So I guess that by the time one applies for naturalisation, he must already have the C permit ("autorisation de séjour ou d'établissement") - which means that even if I've fulfilled the eight years of stay here but only under a carte de legitimation (and not a C permit, even if years spent on the carte do count towards the eight years), I still wouldn't be eligible?
Looking at the message, http://www.ejpd.admin.ch/content/dam...bot-bueg-f.pdf (section 1.2.3.1) attached to the document, that appears to be the case. The C permit prerequisite was pushed by the UDC/SVP.
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  #38  
Old 08.03.2011, 00:36
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Re: Bern proposes changes to citizenship law

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Looking at the message, http://www.ejpd.admin.ch/content/dam...bot-bueg-f.pdf (section 1.2.3.1) attached to the document, that appears to be the case. The C permit prerequisite was pushed by the UDC/SVP.
Ah ben... I just hope that George's theory on the new law applying only to those entering the country from a certain year would indeed be the case...
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  #39  
Old 08.03.2011, 01:11
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Re: Bern proposes changes to citizenship law

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Ah ben... I just hope that George's theory on the new law applying only to those entering the country from a certain year would indeed be the case...
very unlikely to happen
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Old 08.03.2011, 08:40
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I am no lawyer, but is it even feasible to put into effect a law that effectively applies retroactively? In other foreigner-related legislation, I have seen statements to the effect of "anyone entering Switzerland after a specific year is subject to the new law." That, to me, would be the most humane way of putting this new law into practice without running roughshod over the planning and expectations of current residents.
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