Ok, to revive an old subject I posted on a while back.

I've quit the job, finishing soon. Original plan was to leave CH at that point but keep the C permit to keep contracting possibilities open (much easier when you already have a C permit). I don't get dole for up to three months so I'd be spending a lot of rent money to stay resident here.

However, I understand I'd still need to pay AHV, Pension and Health Insurance if I left the country but kept the permit. Is that so? I know I'd need to still file a tax return, no problems with that.

Also, by keeping the permit it means I could register here again in Jan and claim dole if I was still unemployed at that time. But as far as I know I'd still be subject to the same rules from the RAV regarding my interim period even if I was to leave CH. ie. I would need to come back at least once a month for an interview to keep myself entitled for benefit in Jan.


Given that I'd want to leave before the pensions rules for withdrawal of contributions change, I'm starting to think it might be better to remain living here, looking for work in the UK and Ireland and flying across for interviews as necessary. I'd simply swallow the expense of any rent that would need to be paid when I left.

Well, either that or completely quit. Officially leave and hand back the permit. No more ongoing mandatory expenses and instant access to the pension pot. No need to be constrained by RAV rules.

The halfway house of returning to the UK and maybe doing some travelling as well as job hunting until Dec is looking like it might just be too much of a half-ar**d compromise.


Anyone got any thoughts?


Gav

Hi Gav,

I'm surprised nobody has answered this yet... I'm not an expert in this subject - so here's a few unqualified thoughts of my own

In my case I'm not excited about contributing to AHV etc. I simply don't believe that a government-based public pension system if going to be around to deliver when I want it. But feel free to contribute to Switzerland's existing demographic issue.... I know it is possible to contribute while working outside of Switzerland with some sort of minimum contribution, but don't know the details.

My guess is that you'd still need to be registered at a certain address in Switzerland and you'd need to have someone check mail in case there was anything you had to respond to. You'd have to file tax returns and unfortunately pay your health insurance. You'd probably want to pay the extra option for world-wide coverage, but be aware of the fact that if the health insurance company got wind of the fact that you weren't really resident here (or rather, also resident somewhere else) they may not want to pay.

So as far as costs go I guess the big one would be rather overpriced health insurance.

Talk to your person at your local community (gemeinde) I think you have the option to go away for up to 2 years if you ask permission first, or 6 months without permission.

Hi Gav,

As far as I'm aware, yes you'd still have to pay AHV, pension and health insurance if you keep your permit.

I found myself in different but related situation. I'm sorry I doubt much of what I have to say is directly relevant to you, but may be relevant to someone else interested in the title of this thread. Unfortunately I don't know much about the changes to the pension rules you mentioned. My experience also relates to a B-Permit, not C as in your case.

After working in Switzerland for several years I decided I wanted to return to the UK for postgraduate study. I approached my employer at the time, who agreed to give me a year's unpaid leave.

As far as AHV goes, there is a minimum amount that you have to pay in order to have contributed for that year, otherwise you risk having gaps. That could be a problem if the pension system still exists in its present form when you come to claim it. Your local 'Ausgleichskasse' (see www.ahv.ch (not in english)) should be able to help you with this. In my case, because I left mid-year and came back mid-(following)-year, working both before I left and after I came back, I paid well over the minimum both years so therefore this was not an issue.

In order to keep the permit, I would have had to remain registered at an address and continue paying health insurance. However, as I was returning to studentdom and a student budget, this was simply not an option for me. But as the EU bilateral agreement with regard to freedom of movement was already in motion back then, I didn't have to worry about any difficulties regaining my B permit when I returned, having already held one. Also I was technically still employed in Switzerland. So I wasn't so worried about the permit.

I also managed to find something on an official website describing special cases for permission for leaving the country without forfeiting your permit (am unable to find it again quickly, but maybe somewhere here: http://www.bfm.admin.ch/) - but my excuse was something along the lines of educational purposes relevant and necessary to my job or required by my company. It was stretching the truth a little but I presented this to my HR manager who then made the necessary case to the local authorities. The result of this was that I had official permission to go away for a year, and although that year itself didn't count, my years spent with a B-Permit previous to leaving counted to the total years needed to obtain a C Permit (i.e. I didn't start back at 0 again).

Remaining an employee meant that I had to continue company pension contributions. However, my company were kind enough to let me pay those all at once in arrears from my first pay cheques upon returning (ouch! that stung!).

So in short, I officially left and deregistered, interrupting my B-Permit for 1 year, remained an employee on unpaid leave, and maintained AHV and company pension contributions. For tax purposes I was resident in the UK for the time i was away, (but this was more or less irrelevant to me considering I was a self-funded student with no income).

Without the support of my employer at the time, this would not have been so easy. However, something along these lines, particularly with the relaxation of permit restrictions for EU citizens in recent years, may be applicable for someone, with a nice boss, lucky enough to be considering taking a year off travelling or similar.

If anyone knows whether if anyone with a B permit that takes unpaid leave needs to keep paying company pension contributions, as the last poster said, even if you stay in CH, please post.

Do you get the benefit eventually of paying this pension money and insurances ?
dave

Lets answer some of these questions.

If you are taking unpaid leave then you do not need to pay any contributions. The contributions for AHV and your pensionkasse are related directly to your income. If there is no income there is no charge. There is a minimum AHV contribution that is required for you to pay in a single year but this is in the low to mid hundred of francs and most people are well over this.

Your Pensionkasse is quite interesting though as it sounds as if you do not have one and if the company does not provide a scheme for you AND THEM to pay into you do not have to contribute. Ah but it is tax efficient - well yes and no. There is a special case of the 3rd pillar which covers the case where there is no pensionkasse and allows you to contribute over CHF 30K per year. This is very advantageous as the law wrt to pension kass transfer does not apply to the rather Swiss special 3rd pillar savings scheme.

To the questions about your Swiss permit. The C permit is a bit of a special case. If you have an address in CH then you only need to be resident at it for one night per 6 months but now that they have signed up to Schengen how the hell will they know. You do not have to pay into the AHV although it is not so daft to do so - small amount high chance of a pay out plus a take it away clause which means you can pull the plug if you think it is about to go pop.

If you are wanting to claim the unemployment and not be "actually" resident here then you need to make sure that:

a. You have a friend who can say you are living with them and recompense them for the additional expenses.
b. Turn up when requested for the beratersessions
c. Have someone regularly/Daily check your mail
d. Have someone who can provide you with accomodation at short notice for up to 6 weeks if you are requested to turn up for a course.
e. Have a Swiss mobile phone so that you can be contacted quickly.

If you are wanting to leave and not loose your permit you can and:-
You do not need to pay into any kasse not even the krankenkasse... as you will not be resident - these are conditions of residency. It is of course sensible to have some form of cover so that if you are travelling outside of the UK you are covered ie BUPA international gold.
And then you simply have to turn up again within 6 months OR tell the Gemeinde that you are leaving to do whatever - world trip to "find yourself" will do and that you will be back again within 2 years. You are then very strongly advised to turn up at the same Gemeinde if you want to actually carry on in CH.

As for your money stored in those pension funds they stay there until you permanently leave the country.

Any questions?

Richard, were these answers to my part of the questions in this thread? Thanks much in any case .

If so, I do have a Pensionkasse, but my salary pays for both the employer and employee contributions. But I understand you are saying no income, no charges. But then I don't understand why Jot had to pay as he said in this quote:

I found this on the pension transfers: http://www.basel.ch/files/downloadfi...20site%3Ach%22

check out the page for the whole faq



The question is though whether the restriction of not being able to take it with you after mid 2007 will also apply to Pillar 3a. I know many banks will charge you tax (7% penalty I believe), but that is all I know.

CURRENTLY the regulations apply to BVG which covers the pensions of 99% of all foreigners. It would be somewhat difficult to transfer this as it often does not have an equivalent in the target country. Therefore it is out. It is also worth considering that many countries cap rigidly the amount you can receive as a pension and prevent cash payout as an option both of which are allowed in Switzerland so if you are near to pension age then it is not worth thinking about leaving until after you have retired.

A point about the AHV is that you can only take this at state retirement age which is not uniform across Europe.

I just posted this to muze7 in reply to a PM, but in case anyone else is also quaking in their boots :

I'm really sorry if my post paniced you... my intention was to try to help!

My company HR department told me I still had to pay my pension contributions because I was still an employee. Bear in mind that at the time I was 24, so I only paid a minimum (something like 1%) that actually didn't go anywhere other than the company pot. In switzerland you're only eligible for a company pension account at 25. I turned 25 during my time away and then that's where the big bills started, at the normal contribution %. They also paid their company contributions to my pension pot, as is normally the case. I only had to pay my contributions.

As they had been helpful on everything else, I didn't question them too much to be honest. So maybe it's me who got shafted and I actually shouldn't have had to pay. I don't remember exactly what was said, but it may have just been company policy, it may also have been something to do with leaving a gap in payments, which would cause problems if when I reached retirement age after 40 years work (i.e. 65), I didn't have the necessary 40 years contributions in the pot - i would then get a reduced pension or have to buy back the difference. Although that's permittable (like AHV which is voluntary if you have no income, (like national insurance contributions in the UK), but again then you don't get the full entitlement to a state pension if you have gaps in your contributions). I don't know at all that it is the law or anything, I just assumed that that's how things are done, as that's what I had to do (or was told I had to do).

I am absolutely NOT any kind of expert on pensions (i'm 28 now... not exactly number 1 talking point in my life right now ). I suggest you speak to someone ilike an independent advisor to get things really clear. Or speak to your company and get to the bottom of what is just preferred 'policy' (and therefore theoretically negotiable), and what's actually unavoidable.

I found my whole situation difficult at the time as no-one could help me, i didn't have a forum to ask for help, I couldn't afford to go to a financial advisor to get proper advice, my company hadn't really been in that situation before, and as it was my choice to go, I guess although they were accommodating and supportive it wasn't in their interests to really sort out the nitty gritty stuff for me to my advantage. So I had to use my initiative and find whatever information I could myself, on the internet, phoning the various offices and authorities.

I see it was not the wisest thing for me to post what I did without everything being hard facts. I could only give an account of my experience in the hope that it may be helpful to others. Some people don't realise that any kind of flexibility is possible, but there are options, and what I wanted to do was share how I made things work for me.

Things could also have changed in the meantime (i.e. the EU pension changes that other posts mention happening next year). But if there was anyone in that situation, I wanted to show that not everything to do with permits etc is fixed in stone and you can find ways round things if it's what you want to do. Where there's a will, there's a way!

So again, I really apologise if my post has done more harm than good.

Just actually read the points on the link which Muze provided and must say this covers the main points but is rather backward thinkins ie they do not mention some things that will be possible very soon and they are answering the questions related to Basel-stadt and nowhere else. This is an important point as most of your tax is going to be to the canton and gemeinde and they have their own rules. BaselStadt is unique in this aspect in that there are no gemeindes.

Great post, Richard. Thanks - I'd give you some more reputation but the system won't let me until I've given some to someone else first


Only one more line of questioning - what do I do about contact address? Just give them one outside the country (eg. that of my parents) or do I need something in CH, maybe a postbox or similar?

I know you deregister from the Gemeinde when you stop living there - so I assume you just deregister and then don't re-register anywhere else. You're allowed to hold on to the permit and when you come back in (within the six months allowed) you register in your new place as if you'd just moved there. BUt I'd imagine that the old Gemeinde would want some sort of address as to where you're going. Am I right?

The only thing is what about taxes - they will want no doubt want some way of getting in contact with you to demand tax when the time comes. Seems to me they'd get antsy if you were out of the country/had no Swiss address for too long.


Gav