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Old 17.08.2007, 20:02
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Postdoc B permit

Hello Everybody!

I have spent the last hours looking for information that would help me to predict what will happen when I renovate my B permit... I found this site, and so far it has been the most useful! However, after reading different threads and downloading several documents, I still don't have a clue! So I decided to post a thread myself.

The facts:

I have been in Zürich for the last 6 and a half years doing two consecutive postdocs at the ETH with a pause of 6 months in between for holidays. I have dual nationality (chilean and belgian) and of course here I am belgian, although you never know whether this affect their judgement... Because here the postdoc contracts are for 1 year even though you are supposed to stay more, I got a 1 year B permit that I have been renovating.

After 4 years I finished my first postdoc I decided to take 6 months holidays. I already knew that I had another position and when I applied for the renovation of the permit (not contract this time but a letter from my future boss saying that he will hire me) I got an L permit for 6 months! (the quota thing I guess). And then in the new postdoc I regained the 1-year-B-permit status.

For the last permit renovation I got a letter saying that the "postdoc" B permit is issued maximum 6 times, and it expires the 15th of september. My contract ends at the end of October.

Now I am applying for grants to stay longer to finish my research here, and because my partner is swiss (living together for the last 5 years) and we plan to stay here for the time being.

I just recieved my annual letter to apply for a renovation, with the section that the employer has to fill crossed out (whatever this means: I had this before and still they asked later for the employer's signature), and... I have no clue what will happen!

The point is, I don't have a new contract and although I know I will be working, I don't know when this will be official. I have been living here for 6 1/2 years, and as a EU citizen I know I could apply even for the C permit, but I have heard (but not found official documents) that this "postdoc" permits do not count (as I was never here!!!).

I just read a document concerning the new regulations for EU citizens (that I downloaded from one of your threads), but I could not find an answer for my case.

Giving that I am EU, that I haven been here for so long working for most of the time, I think the minimum I deserve is a 5 year B permit, but I'm really not sure whether I will get it considering this misterious "postdoc" permits that don't count, and that I only have an official job for 1 month and a half after my permit expires...

Sorry for this super long message, but I wanted to give as much detail as possible, so if there is an expert on this matters, I could get an answer as to what I should get according to the law! I always get the feeling (by comparing with other postdocs), and all of this is so arbitrary...

Thanks a lot!

Garthia-who-refuses-to-get-married-for-a-permit
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Old 17.08.2007, 20:05
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Re: Postdoc B permit

Welcome to Switzerland.
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Old 20.08.2007, 09:32
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Re: Postdoc B permit

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Hello Everybody!

I have spent the last hours looking for information that would help me to predict what will happen when I renovate my B permit... I found this site, and so far it has been the most useful! However, after reading different threads and downloading several documents, I still don't have a clue! So I decided to post a thread myself.

The facts:

I have been in Zürich for the last 6 and a half years doing two consecutive postdocs at the ETH with a pause of 6 months in between for holidays. I have dual nationality (chilean and belgian) and of course here I am belgian, although you never know whether this affect their judgement... Because here the postdoc contracts are for 1 year even though you are supposed to stay more, I got a 1 year B permit that I have been renovating.

After 4 years I finished my first postdoc I decided to take 6 months holidays. I already knew that I had another position and when I applied for the renovation of the permit (not contract this time but a letter from my future boss saying that he will hire me) I got an L permit for 6 months! (the quota thing I guess). And then in the new postdoc I regained the 1-year-B-permit status.

For the last permit renovation I got a letter saying that the "postdoc" B permit is issued maximum 6 times, and it expires the 15th of september. My contract ends at the end of October.

Now I am applying for grants to stay longer to finish my research here, and because my partner is swiss (living together for the last 5 years) and we plan to stay here for the time being.

I just recieved my annual letter to apply for a renovation, with the section that the employer has to fill crossed out (whatever this means: I had this before and still they asked later for the employer's signature), and... I have no clue what will happen!

The point is, I don't have a new contract and although I know I will be working, I don't know when this will be official. I have been living here for 6 1/2 years, and as a EU citizen I know I could apply even for the C permit, but I have heard (but not found official documents) that this "postdoc" permits do not count (as I was never here!!!).

I just read a document concerning the new regulations for EU citizens (that I downloaded from one of your threads), but I could not find an answer for my case.

Giving that I am EU, that I haven been here for so long working for most of the time, I think the minimum I deserve is a 5 year B permit, but I'm really not sure whether I will get it considering this misterious "postdoc" permits that don't count, and that I only have an official job for 1 month and a half after my permit expires...

Sorry for this super long message, but I wanted to give as much detail as possible, so if there is an expert on this matters, I could get an answer as to what I should get according to the law! I always get the feeling (by comparing with other postdocs), and all of this is so arbitrary...

Thanks a lot!

Garthia-who-refuses-to-get-married-for-a-permit
Well firstly you need to be aware that a post-doc permit is classed as a short term permit which is really a suitable description for the majority. It has a maximum length of validity of 6 years 2x3 years - thereafter you need to apply for a permanent B permit. For this reason you are not regarded as integrated in the Swiss employment market - so to speak just visiting. When your time is up you can apply for a permanent permit if your employer is prepared to stand the stress of doing this or if you are an EU citizen then again you can apply for a permit based on the bilateral agreement between the EU and Switzerland. This though would be something you would be doing as an individual as it is no longer dependent on employment - hence the name of the employer being crossed out - no longer relevant.

Hence, in your case simply apply - They will then give you in most probability a 5 year B permit but if not a 6 month job seekers permit (I somehow doubt this though). You are quite right when you say it appears arbitrary in that it depends who deals with your case and how they view your situation. While there are laws, they only dictate the procedure and provide a framework, however the outcome involves a certain amount of interpretation of the them and here mistakes can initially be made. In your case there are certain factors applying which will be interpreted and effect the result. I would be betting on a 5 year B permit based on what you have said. Note here that providing all this information to the authorities might initially have a negative bearing so only provide that that is asked for. If you receive a negative result then you can provide the additional information on appeal and lastly if that does not work and noting your don't want to get married to get a permit, apply for your partnership to be officially recognised - a sort of half way house which will remove all the potential obstacles...

Clearer now?
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Old 20.08.2007, 10:04
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Re: Postdoc B permit

I concur with Richard. Unfortunately this happens quite routinely at the Universities and federal institutes (it appears that they do not want eternal post-docs) and after two stints you begin to have problems with your permit.

I don't think that your University/institution would be willing to endorse the application for a 5 year B permit because of the nature of the post-doc contracts here (short term renewable).

After 5 years, why not apply for a partner dependent permit ?..... and forgo the hassles of dealing with all the crazy admin. involved
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Old 20.08.2007, 11:27
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Re: Postdoc B permit

Thanks Richard and DNAMan! So, I just have to apply and see... I thought about the legal partnership thing, but I thought it was only for people of the same sex, that by law cannot get married. Is it, or is it not? If not, do you know what's the procedure?
Thanks!
Garthia
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Old 20.08.2007, 11:38
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Re: Postdoc B permit

Yes, that is very strange if partnership between a hetero couple is recognized for permit purposes! Such partnership not recognized when it comes to tax, which is bad for me as my living allowance is dependent on whether it is recognized or not.

How strange. If they do recognize partnerships for permit purposes, then perhaps it is only in some kantons?
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Old 20.08.2007, 12:05
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Re: Postdoc B permit

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Yes, that is very strange if partnership between a hetero couple is recognized for permit purposes! Such partnership not recognized when it comes to tax, which is bad for me as my living allowance is dependent on whether it is recognized or not.

How strange. If they do recognize partnerships for permit purposes, then perhaps it is only in some kantons?
Not really, if one's partner (unmarried) is swiss, then it is perfectly normal to obtain a permit once the swiss partner notifies the authorities that he/she wishes to ratify the relationship for permit purposes. This is very similar to a full on spousal permit except that you are not married and hence will probably not qualify you for a C- permit (is this correct richard?).

Problem is that relationship break-ups can cause nasty situations if the swiss partner then revokes their support of your permit.
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Old 20.08.2007, 12:16
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Re: Postdoc B permit

so, one has to notify the authorities when you apply for the permit, or independently? Is it just a notification, of you have to sign papers and stuff? Do you think it's important to show that you have been living together for a long time? Like showing that you share a bank account and have lived in the same place?
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Old 20.08.2007, 12:34
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Re: Postdoc B permit

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Yes, that is very strange if partnership between a hetero couple is recognized for permit purposes! Such partnership not recognized when it comes to tax, which is bad for me as my living allowance is dependent on whether it is recognized or not.

How strange. If they do recognize partnerships for permit purposes, then perhaps it is only in some kantons?
Yes you are quite right it is dependent on canton - but you are not surprised are you. It is only from Jan 1. 2007 that same sex "marriage" were recognised through the formal partnership register at a federal level. Many cantons recognise the rights of concubine relationships although not all and of course while this has effects on your joint wealth and how this is dealt with in the future it has no bearing on your tax status where you are either married or not...
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Old 20.08.2007, 12:36
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Re: Postdoc B permit

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Not really, if one's partner (unmarried) is swiss, then it is perfectly normal to obtain a permit once the swiss partner notifies the authorities that he/she wishes to ratify the relationship for permit purposes. This is very similar to a full on spousal permit except that you are not married and hence will probably not qualify you for a C- permit (is this correct richard?).

Problem is that relationship break-ups can cause nasty situations if the swiss partner then revokes their support of your permit.
If you are hetrosexual, the relationship consequences are by canton and not federal although strangely the cantonal law can sort of override the federal law.
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Old 20.08.2007, 15:26
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Re: Postdoc B permit

Richard, do you know if in kanton Zürich one can declare an heterosexual partnership? Do you know how it works or where I can find the information?
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Old 20.08.2007, 15:52
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Re: Postdoc B permit

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Richard, do you know if in kanton Zürich one can declare an heterosexual partnership? Do you know how it works or where I can find the information?
Can't help you there sorry. I was under the impression ie I was certain you could but that was last year. With the introduction of the new law regarding same sex marriages I am not so sure. You need to ask at the local Gemeinde in Zurich as they are responsible for civil affairs.
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Old 21.08.2007, 00:52
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Re: Postdoc B permit

A case was put before one of the Swiss courts I think a while ago, where it concerned a women and a man; perhaps one could argue something on the basis of unfair discrimination if you could get a permit on the basis of a partnership that is recognized for a same sex couple, but not for a hetero couple, if that is an issue in a particular kanton.

But I am hoping you will not have to go that far
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Old 21.08.2007, 11:46
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Re: Postdoc B permit

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A case was put before one of the Swiss courts I think a while ago, where it concerned a women and a man; perhaps one could argue something on the basis of unfair discrimination if you could get a permit on the basis of a partnership that is recognized for a same sex couple, but not for a hetero couple, if that is an issue in a particular kanton.

But I am hoping you will not have to go that far
That you will not be able to argue as the reason for the same sex union is that there is no marriage available to them. The only reason for marriage not being available to a hetrosexual couple is that one of the couple is married or insane so...
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