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  #101  
Old 18.08.2009, 12:55
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Re: EU Permits - A few bullet points

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*cough* yes it does, and it means exactly what it says - for family reunification to be granted the spouse needs to be resident in the EU. Else the family reunification is governed by the prescriptions of the Aliens Law (Auslaender Gesetz, AuG). See Federal Tribunal sentence 2A.475/2004 which is current jurisprudence.
With all due respect (and I say this not like those diplomats who say it and mean the opposite) it is not clear what you are trying to say. The case you refer to, AX & BX v. Département de la police du canton de Fribourg is, fortunately, in French or I should still be reading and thinking about it tomorrow, or even asking my neighbour at our home in Valais to translate it. Because my German is schoolboy German (Read this on that: http://uniset.ca/naty/hebdo_allemand.htm )

The case you cited, at http://bit.ly/1YBbV , concerns a couple who not only were separated but had a court order to that effect. How far Diatta v. Land Berlin, http://bit.ly/110VJ0 , is incorporated into Swiss immigration law as part of the Swiss-EU Treaties is something I cannot address for the reason I said: I studied law in Belgium and not Switzerland.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I have glanced at it and will read it thoroughly later on.

Why do you think that a couple living together (married or not) will be treated similarly to a legally-separated couple like AX and BX? Concubinage brings its own issues but they are quite different ones from those involving separation and divorce, and bereavement.

For the rest, the "Surinder Singh" case is now established law and I doubt (but of course cannot without spending an hour or more of research certify) that Swiss law fails to recognise it. Surinder Singh ( http://bit.ly/10RQRp ) concerned an Indian national married to an (ethnic Indian but that is not relevant) British national. They lived and worked in Germany for at least six months and then sought to move to Britain under EU, not British, immigration law. Which they could do because Singh was deemed now an EU worker.

There are various permutations of this. Channel Islands natives are British citizens but not EU citizens until and unless they live in the UK for six months. Then their Channel Islands passports will be so endorsed. But to qualify as an EU worker in Britain they would have then to work six months in another EU/EEA/Swiss country.

Natives of Northern Ireland are normally dual British and Irish citizens. (One of my daughters, born in Belfast, has those two plus Swiss nationality). They can avail themselves, under British practice, of their Irish citizenship and be granted EU rights even if they never leave the British Isles. (Political reason: in N.I. Catholics present themselves as Irish; Protestants as British. The Belfast Agreement specifically preserves their right to do so.)

It will be fruitless to try to foresee all possible questions and limitations of an answer to any forum question on EU law or EU-Switzerland Treaties, and even more when the question concerns migration. People can and do contrive to qualify for benefits that were not intended for them. http://www.uniset.ca/naty/maternity/ And, hey, that's what lawyers are for and why the rich will never have to live under bridges whether or not the law allows them to.

I would check out your cough for swine flu if I were you. But if i find, later on, anything wrong with what I wrote above I will post a correction.
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  #102  
Old 18.08.2009, 13:37
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Re: EU Permits - A few bullet points

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With all due respect (and I say this not like those diplomats who say it and mean the opposite)
Oh, but you certainly do behave like one - both in your last phrase and in the verbose eloquence preceding it that is not directly relevant to the question.

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Why do you think that a couple living together (married or not) will be treated similarly to a legally-separated couple like AX and BX? Concubinage brings its own issues but they are quite different ones from those involving separation and divorce, and bereavement.
Well, i suppose if you do speak French, you'll understand that I think a couple will be treated similarly to AX and BX based on

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S'inspirant d'une récente jurisprudence de cette juridiction (arrêt de la CJCE du 23 septembre 2003, Secretary of State c. Akrich, C-109/2001, Rec. 2003, p. 607 ss, point 57), le Tribunal fédéral a précisé que l'art. 3 Annexe I ALCP n'était pas applicable lorsque, au moment de la demande de regroupement familial, le membre de la famille concerné du ressortissant communautaire n'avait pas la nationalité d'un Etat membre de la Communauté européenne et ne résidait pas déjà légalement dans un Etat membre (cf. ATF 130 II 1 consid. 3.6 p. 9 ss).
If you do not speak French, then the gist of the above is that the right of an EU citizen to family reunion in Switzerland only arises from the prescriptions of the Free Movement Agreement (namely Article 3 of the Annex) if the (non-EU part of the) family is already EU resident - and you'll note that EU and Swiss jurisprudence applied to this particular case refer to married (not separated couples). Ironically the Surinder Singh case you quote is based on the same principles...
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  #103  
Old 18.08.2009, 13:53
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Re: EU Permits - A few bullet points

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Oh, but you certainly do - in your last phrase.

Well, i suppose if you do speak French, you'll understand that I think a couple will be treated similarly to AX and BX based on

If you do not speak French, then the gist of the above is that the right of an EU citizen to family reunion only arises from the prescriptions of the Free Movement Agreement (namely Article 3 of the Annex) if the (non-EU part of the) family is already EU resident - and you'll note that EU and Swiss jurisprudence applied to this particular case refer to married (not separated couples).
Would you suppose that I have the degree of Docteur en droit, and a Swiss passport, without speaking French?

I don't think I have further to add on this subject. It would appear that you misunderstood what I said, and the law also. Read, if you like, the Diatta case and note the difference between couples who live apart for whatever reason (but, most typically, for convenience such as weekend commuters) and those who are legally separated. A separated couple is still married until and unless there is "séparation de corps". I think you may have misconstrued the English.

It happens that my field of expertise is droit international privé (conflict of laws), and in particular civil status and cross-border tax. The result is that I wind up addressing other lawyers' mistakes, which can be very depressing. If you think what I write is wrong, I'm sorry. But my peer-reviewed publications are here and there, in university libraries and on the Internet, and you can always read those. Or visit the Institut suisse de droit comparé at Lausanne.

I always discourage people from relying on forum postings as statements of law, which is why I add links and citations the way I would if submitting an argument in court. I realise that jurists in Switzerland, unlike in Britain, are not bound by precedent (other than jurisprudence constante). One result may be a tendency for the untrained to read the Code and jump to conclusions. (Hey, is there something in that reminding us of fundamentalist believers in various parts of the world?)

But who knows, perhaps you are a judge of the Supreme Court and I have got everything wrong, and everything I have written in my career is rubbish. I haven't been sued for malpractice yet, but it could happen. On the other hand, your condescention seems to have overwhelmed your words which trailed off ("Well, i suppose if you do speak French, you'll understand that I think a couple will be treated similarly to AX and BX based on [sic]").

I leave the last word to you; I'm off.
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  #104  
Old 18.08.2009, 15:57
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Re: EU Permits - A few bullet points

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*cough* yes it does, and it means exactly what it says - for family reunification to be granted the spouse needs to be resident in the EU. Else the family reunification is governed by the prescriptions of the Aliens Law (Auslaender Gesetz, AuG). See Federal Tribunal sentence 2A.475/2004 which is current jurisprudence.
Hi Shorrick,

Surely this is important enough to warrant an edit of your original bullet points post? Many times I see questions such as "can I bring my Australian/NZ/SthAfrican/ spouse with me" The answer is always yes, if the marriage is formal. Which you are saying is not the case.

Also, what does "resident" mean (permanent residence?). And what about resident in Switzerland (1 year permit for example)?
Thanks....
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  #105  
Old 18.08.2009, 16:49
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Re: EU Permits - A few bullet points

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Hi Shorrick,

Surely this is important enough to warrant an edit of your original bullet points post? Many times I see questions such as "can I bring my Australian/NZ/SthAfrican/ spouse with me" The answer is always yes, if the marriage is formal. Which you are saying is not the case.

Also, what does "resident" mean (permanent residence?). And what about resident in Switzerland (1 year permit for example)?
Thanks....
"Always" is never a good answer. And while most marriages valid where made are valid everywhere, that is not always the case:
-- same sex marriages
-- proxy marriages (these days most common in relation to soldiers at war anxious to assure military benefits to fiancée/spouse and children)
-- polygamous marriages (these give visa assurance mainly to diplomats and sometimes tourists)
-- underage marriages ("nonage")
-- marriages deemed in fraud of immigration (mariages blancs)
-- marriages after a doubtful divorce
-- limping marriages generally

and, if you want to go further into the weird, marriages where the sex of one of the parties is in dispute. There are several such cases on various aspects of the problem, such as Goodwin v. UK http://www.echr.coe.int/Eng/Press/20...%20Chamber.htm and Schlumpf v. Switzerland http://sim.law.uu.nl/SIM/CaseLaw/hof...a?OpenDocument

Residence does not have a single meaning. There is
-- "habitual residence" (in connection with The Hague conventions, normally place of residence for the past six months)
-- tax home, or (in UK) "ordinary residence" (varies by country; but if you register as resident with the Commune, that's probably it.
-- legal residence (illegal immigrants, asylum seekers, students, diplomats do not normally acquire legal residence ("domicile" in some legal systems) no matter how long they are there, absent "animus manendi" and some other stuff. In Canon law it took 10 years and then a "student" was deemed domiciled. How about residence for purposes of establishing liability to suit?
-- for consular purposes (jurisdiction for visas, etc.) one only needs to show the right to live in the consular jurisdiction, usually for a year or more.

You really need to specify the context for "residence" and then it can be defined. Recall that for purposes of attributing certain rights and elements of status Switzerland has "Commune of origin", Spain has "vecindad civil" and the Common law has an autonomous sort of "domicile" that differs as between the USA and the rest of the Anglo-American legal world. See, on that Willis LM Reese, "Does Domicile Bear a Single Meaning?", 55 Colum. L. Rev. 589 (1955)
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  #106  
Old 19.08.2009, 17:17
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Re: EU Permits - A few bullet points

Hi everyone,
I have a bit of a special question I hope someone will be able to enlighten me on. I see a lot of info about people wanting to get a permit, searching for jobs etc...
I am currently looking for a job BUT I am looking europe-wide. I have a few interviews coming up, in 4 countries, one of them Switzerland, and obiviously wont know the outcome of them until in 3-4 weeks. In the meantime, I've also looked for more temporary jobs, and have found one in peachy Zurich (lovely boyfriend lives here, so am happy to come home to him every night with a few francs in my pocket). I started working this Monday.
And for the special part: I DONT WANT TO REGISTER as a resident. This temporary job could be over in just a fortnight, and the kreisburo wants to get 88 CHF and a photo from me. I certainly dont intend to rent a place in Zurich (btw my jon interview is in Lausanne, so I would not be moving permanently to Zurich).
So I asked the Kreisburo "what if i dont register"? And they kindly replied that the police will be after me! (I know I have 8 days).
My employer has registered me online, as lodging at my bofriend's place and earning into his bank acount. Employer told me he registered me for 3 months, but the contract says unlimited. ALSO IMPORTANT: the contract says I work too few hours to be considered an employee and covered by insurance outside work, and to have to pay taxes... (basically that i work 20h a week, and earn less than 2000 CHF per year). I work on an hourly basis, the workload is very flexible (this week I do 24h, next week only 8).

What is your opinion?
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  #107  
Old 19.08.2009, 17:20
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Re: EU Permits - A few bullet points

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Hi everyone,
I have a bit of a special question I hope someone will be able to enlighten me on. I see a lot of info about people wanting to get a permit, searching for jobs etc...
I am currently looking for a job BUT I am looking europe-wide. I have a few interviews coming up, in 4 countries, one of them Switzerland, and obiviously wont know the outcome of them until in 3-4 weeks. In the meantime, I've also looked for more temporary jobs, and have found one in peachy Zurich (lovely boyfriend lives here, so am happy to come home to him every night with a few francs in my pocket). I started working this Monday.
And for the special part: I DONT WANT TO REGISTER as a resident. This temporary job could be over in just a fortnight, and the kreisburo wants to get 88 CHF and a photo from me. I certainly dont intend to rent a place in Zurich (btw my jon interview is in Lausanne, so I would not be moving permanently to Zurich).
So I asked the Kreisburo "what if i dont register"? And they kindly replied that the police will be after me! (I know I have 8 days).
My employer has registered me online, as lodging at my bofriend's place and earning into his bank acount. Employer told me he registered me for 3 months, but the contract says unlimited. ALSO IMPORTANT: the contract says I work too few hours to be considered an employee and covered by insurance outside work, and to have to pay taxes... (basically that i work 20h a week, and earn less than 2000 CHF per year). I work on an hourly basis, the workload is very flexible (this week I do 24h, next week only 8).

What is your opinion?
20 hours a MONTH, not per week, sorry!!
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  #108  
Old 20.08.2009, 11:47
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Re: EU Permits - A few bullet points

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What is your opinion?
That you have already posted this in another thread and received the answers and advice you need?
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  #109  
Old 25.08.2009, 15:21
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Re: EU Permits - A few bullet points

I'm British, here on holiday, whilst looking at what kind of job opportunities are available/ if it's viable for me to stay here and get a job.

I've read the thing about visas, but I'm a bit confused.

'Gainful activity for more than 3 months:
Within 14 days of their arrival and before actually taking up work, nationals of EU17/EFTA have to register with the communal authorities at their place of stay and apply for a residence permit. A valid ID (or a valid passport) as well as a written confirmation of employment have to be presented.'

- Great if you already have a confirmation of employment, yet what about if you're just still job searching? I don't really understand how this works if you want to work for more than 3 months. I've read so many pages of information and I think none of it is being absorbed now!

How can I get a permit which allows me to work/ take up a job offer, when I currently have no offer in Switzerland?!

' Do I first have to find a job in Switzerland, or can I immigrate before? EU/EFTA nationals may enter Switzerland for job-hunting purposes. No permit is required for a period of up to three months. If they have not found a job after this time, a short-term residence permit (L permit) will be granted for another three months' job search.'


So am I automatically given a permit if I find a job within 3 months?!
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  #110  
Old 26.08.2009, 08:49
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Re: EU Permits - A few bullet points

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So am I automatically given a permit if I find a job within 3 months?!
If you find a job within the 3 months you get whatever residence permit fits the job. If you do not find a job then you get a temporary permit allowing you to stay for a further 3 months as a job seeker.
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  #111  
Old 26.08.2009, 18:59
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Re: EU Permits - A few bullet points

Hi,
Is anyone familiar with switching a permit?
My hubby is a non-EU breadearner with L-permit and I'm a EU citizen with L-permit. Our permits will expire at the end of this year.
I'm curious whether both of our L-permit will change to B if I get a 6-month temporary job, starting in September...
Can anyone share permit-switching experience?
Thank you.
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  #112  
Old 26.08.2009, 22:34
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Re: EU Permits - A few bullet points

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If you find a job within the 3 months you get whatever residence permit fits the job. If you do not find a job then you get a temporary permit allowing you to stay for a further 3 months as a job seeker.
Okay, thanks. I take it that limits my job search then, since I've seen jobs demanding a certain permit. Nice to know I will get a permit if I secure a job though. All go go go for the search then!
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  #113  
Old 31.08.2009, 17:05
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Re: EU Permits - A few bullet points

Hi

I'm from Hungary and my BF's just got a job in Geneva (within the company, and they're doing the visa application for him). When inquiring about the process, he was told that 'the first stage has been completed and he passed'. Do you guys know what this means? Does it refer to the cantonal level? If yes, how likely is it for a Hungarian to get full approval?

Thanx loads

Flower
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  #114  
Old 09.09.2009, 07:42
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Re: EU Permits - A few bullet points

Hi Shorrik,
I know this has already been answered somewhere in your thread but I am having difficulty getting confirmation from the Swiss embassy that me and my partner can actually do this: I currently live in Australia but have a French passport. My partner is Australian. I have just been offered a position in Zurich and been told by my employer that I don't have to worry about any paperwork or visa till I get there as I'm an EU citizen.
For my partner, we were hoping to get a spouse visa, although we are not married, but have ample proof of our commitment to one another (I have acquired permanent residency in Australia through a de factor application and we have lived together for 5 years). I know that you mentioned in your bullet points that a spouse should be able to come in as dependent even if not married, however the Swiss Embassy in Sydney does not seem to be familiar with this at all, nor the one in Paris. The only option they suggested for him is to apply for a tourist visa or find an employer and apply for a separate work visa. I notice you mention getting in touch directly with the Migration office of the canton. Is this the number I should contact then:
Migrationsamt des Kantons Zürich
Berninastrasse 45
Postfach
8090 Zürich
Tel.: 043 259 88 00 ?
Regardless, which form should we use for his application if I supposedly don't need to apply for my visa before getting in Switzerland? As you can see, I'm a little confused by it all.....
Thanks for your help
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  #115  
Old 09.09.2009, 13:33
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Re: EU Permits - A few bullet points

There are several threads with other Australians in a similar position, I am not sure how those stories ended. But I can tell you mine: we also had an Australian de facto visa, and it did not count for anything at all. You need to contact the Kanton and say you will sponsor your partner financially, and take on all financial risks, including health care. You need to write a letter, have your permit ready (so you might need to wait), and provide prove of your relationship, like joint bank accounts perhaps, and show your income is sufficient (I think 4400 chf per month before tax for two people, roughly).
Then, they can still refuse you.

In our situation we were both old-EU, had plenty of proof, but they wanted us to marry! PS, search the web under Konkubinat, that is what you need to apply for, dependant visa based on the fact your partner will be cohabitating with you, which means you need to show a rental contract showing the house is big enough.
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  #116  
Old 09.09.2009, 17:53
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Re: EU Permits - A few bullet points

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In our situation we were both old-EU, had plenty of proof, but they wanted us to marry! PS, search the web under Konkubinat, that is what you need to apply for, dependant visa based on the fact your partner will be cohabitating with you, which means you need to show a rental contract showing the house is big enough.
Oh lord. I've been searching the web for possibilities for weeks now, but found nothing. (My BF of 9 ys has got a job in Geneva.) I caught my breath at the appearance of such a topic. For a moment I thought I'd found something.

Well, it seems as 'new EU' my situation is far more difficult. And based on your post you had plenty of proof. I'll be staying in CH as a tourist till Christmas. I desperately hope I'll find a way to settle there... Thx for the information though. At least I know about such a 'possibility'.
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  #117  
Old 10.09.2009, 01:09
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Re: EU Permits - A few bullet points

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search the web under Konkubinat, that is what you need to apply for, dependant visa based on the fact your partner will be cohabitating with you, which means you need to show a rental contract showing the house is big enough.
Thanks Muse for the info. Do you know if my boyfriend can apply for this Konkubinat visa if he is already in Switzerland under a tourist visa or is it one of these that you have to apply to outside of the country?
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  #118  
Old 16.09.2009, 09:43
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Re: EU Permits - A few bullet points

this was asked before but perhaps good to ask and remind all: what are the main advantages of C permit?
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  #119  
Old 21.09.2009, 13:07
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Re: EU Permits - A few bullet points

Hello
Could anyone please clarify some question: I'm non-EU citizen married to EU husband. We are both living in Ireland. I would like to undertake some position in one of the non-governmental organisations, which doesnt provide any work permit support. Am I eligible to work / apply for work permit in Switzerland despite of me and my hasband still living and working in EU ?
many thanks
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  #120  
Old 06.10.2009, 13:54
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Re: EU Permits - A few bullet points

Short and to the point - just what we need. Many thanks for all your advice.

Stay cool - Shirls
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