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  #21  
Old 19.08.2011, 19:03
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Re: What happens when a Frontalier becomes unemployed?

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I am not sure that you can stay in France long term with a carte de sejour. I used to live and work there before moving to Switzerland and I was told by my town hall that I would have to register for a carte de sojourn after 3 months. After this period I was considered as a semi permanent resident.
I am sure. A carte de sejour is not required for EU citizens, and hasn't been for quite some time.

http://riviera.angloinfo.com/countri.../residency.asp

It looks like they are introducing requirements to register with the mairie in certain departments, but this is on a case-by-case basis. Certainly when I last lived in France (a few years ago) there was no need to do anything more than let the tax services know you were there.
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  #22  
Old 19.08.2011, 19:05
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Re: What happens when a Frontalier becomes unemployed?

Euroskier, why not come back and tell us the facts so no more 'assumptions' are made. And I promise not to post on this thread again and not to shop you to the authorities (be they in CH, F or UK). Bonne chance.
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  #23  
Old 19.08.2011, 19:08
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Re: What happens when a Frontalier becomes unemployed?

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Crikey, lots of assuming going on here.

Why not wait until he he answers the relavent question before applying the flames? That is
You mean he is coming back?






Sorry couldnt resist
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  #24  
Old 19.08.2011, 19:27
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Re: What happens when a Frontalier becomes unemployed?

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Euroskier, why not come back and tell us the facts so no more 'assumptions' are made. And I promise not to post on this thread again and not to shop you to the authorities (be they in CH, F or UK). Bonne chance.
The forum would be so boring if posters asked questions & gave the necessary information to fully answer the question. Villiage Idiot would also have nothing useful to add about my posts
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  #25  
Old 19.08.2011, 23:04
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Re: What happens when a Frontalier becomes unemployed?

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You mean he is coming back?






Sorry couldnt resist
I suspect not, after having received the wrath of the EF .
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Old 22.08.2011, 09:53
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Re: What happens when a Frontalier becomes unemployed?

Hi Everybody,

Sorry for not replying sooner, I have had a busy weekend travelling - i have to say i'm quite surprised by some of the negative responses, but maybe i didn't explain my situation clearly (this is part of the problem actually, as i'm not that clear of my situation, hence asking for advice..)

So I arrived in France as a seasonnairre ski bum (not working, just skiing in the winter) a few years ago after university. I then spent two winters and two summers skiing/biking here WITHOUT working - i returned to the uk in Spring/Autumn to work, pay taxes etc - all this info is probably not relevant now.

In March 2010, after a winter skiing in France, i decided i wanted to find a long term solution to stay here. I applied for jobs in Geneva - and found one with a Swiss IT company. I have now been working there for exactly 16 months - I am paid in Switzerland, i have a frontalier 'G' permit, and i am taxed at source. I also have all my other social contributions deducted at source, and pay for private health insurance with Swiss life - designe dfor frontaliers, and therefore do not need a carte vitale.

I emailed the Marie last week, and she confirmed that i do not any longer have to declare residency in France. I do not need to pay ANYTHING to the French authorities if i am being taxed at source in Switzerland, so long as i do not have any other income outside of my work.

However, if i wish to become a permanent resident - carte sejour - i need to register with my passport/proof of address and fill in a tax return every year - on this tax return, i'd indicate my earnings (in Switzerland) and would NOT pay any further tax.

The question still remains however - as a legal resident, paying taxes legally in Switzerland where i work legally, where would i claim unemployment benefits from should i be made redundant. Please note - my job is currently qutie secure, but with economic climate, and the fact that i work in a consultancy, this may soon change.

I hope this extra info helps...

Thanks,

Adrian
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  #27  
Old 22.08.2011, 09:58
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Hi Everybody,

Sorry for not replying sooner, I have had a busy weekend travelling - i have to say i'm quite surprised by some of the negative responses, but maybe i didn't explain my situation clearly (this is part of the problem actually, as i'm not that clear of my situation, hence asking for advice..)

So I arrived in France as a seasonnairre ski bum (not working, just skiing in the winter) a few years ago after university. I then spent two winters and two summers skiing/biking here WITHOUT working - i returned to the uk in Spring/Autumn to work, pay taxes etc - all this info is probably not relevant now.

In March 2010, after a winter skiing in France, i decided i wanted to find a long term solution to stay here. I applied for jobs in Geneva - and found one with a Swiss IT company. I have now been working there for exactly 16 months - I am paid in Switzerland, i have a frontalier 'G' permit, and i am taxed at source. I also have all my other social contributions deducted at source, and pay for private health insurance with Swiss life - designe dfor frontaliers, and therefore do not need a carte vitale.

I emailed the Marie last week, and she confirmed that i do not any longer have to declare residency in France. I do not need to pay ANYTHING to the French authorities if i am being taxed at source in Switzerland, so long as i do not have any other income outside of my work.

However, if i wish to become a permanent resident - carte sejour - i need to register with my passport/proof of address and fill in a tax return every year - on this tax return, i'd indicate my earnings (in Switzerland) and would NOT pay any further tax.

The question still remains however - as a legal resident, paying taxes legally in Switzerland where i work legally, where would i claim unemployment benefits from should i be made redundant. Please note - my job is currently qutie secure, but with economic climate, and the fact that i work in a consultancy, this may soon change.

I hope this extra info helps...

Thanks,

Adrian
You claim unemployment pay where you live.
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  #28  
Old 22.08.2011, 10:04
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Re: What happens when a Frontalier becomes unemployed?

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So I arrived in France as a seasonnairre ski bum (not working, just skiing in the winter) a few years ago after university. I then spent two winters and two summers skiing/biking here WITHOUT working - i returned to the uk in Spring/Autumn to work, pay taxes etc - all this info is probably not relevant now.
I hate you.

But that aside, I think you are going to find it difficult to get (full) unemployment benefit in CH as you haven't been here for 12 months (which I believe is the minimum amount) nor, obviously, 18 months (which I think you need to get the full amount).

But someone'll come along and tell you I'm wrong soon. Good luck.
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  #29  
Old 22.08.2011, 10:22
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Re: What happens when a Frontalier becomes unemployed?

Thank you!

For everybody's information, please see the below correspondence with my local Marie:

Je vous informe que, contrairement à d’autres pays, vous pouvez résider en France sans « carte de séjour » mais uniquement avec votre passeport
en cours de validité (Circulaire préfectorale du 19.02.04 portant sur la suppression de la carte de séjour pour les ressortissants de l’Union Européenne/Voir copie jointe)

Par contre, vous dites être « travailleur frontalier sur Genève » ;
Sachez que, chaque année, nous effectuons un « recensement » demandé par le Conseil Général ;
Ainsi, vous voudrez bien nous préciser :
-votre date et lieu de naissance,
-le nom de la Société qui vous emploie et son adresse
-et le N° de votre carte de travail
-Votre adresse sur ....;

Notez que notre tableau de « Frontaliers » doit être retourné au Conseil Général de Hte Savoie avant le 1er septembre.


After:

Si vous souhaitez résider d’une façon permanente, il suffit, dès votre arrivée de vous faire connaître en Mairie (au service des Taxes « Habitation »
& « Foncière »/2ème Etage de la Mairie;
Vous avez également la possibilité, de vous faire inscrire sur nos listes électorales (Electeurs Européens) et ce, jusqu’au 31.12.2011 inclus en présentant
votre passeport et un justificatif de domicile.
Puis c’est à vous de faire votre changement d’adresse auprès du service des Impôts dont nous dépendons
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  #30  
Old 22.08.2011, 10:42
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Re: What happens when a Frontalier becomes unemployed?

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Si vous souhaitez résider d’une façon permanente, il suffit, dès votre arrivée de vous faire connaître en Mairie (au service des Taxes « Habitation »
& « Foncière »/2ème Etage de la Mairie;
Vous avez également la possibilité, de vous faire inscrire sur nos listes électorales (Electeurs Européens) et ce, jusqu’au 31.12.2011 inclus en présentant
votre passeport et un justificatif de domicile.
Puis c’est à vous de faire votre changement d’adresse auprès du service des Impôts dont nous dépendons
And? Have you?
According Art. 4 lit. f) of the relevant French regulation, French unemployment benefits are only payable to residents. That means permanent residents, registered at the mairie. The specific conditions for frantaliers are set out in this document. As you can see, this is all rather long and complicated, and there are time limits (e.g. you must "sign on" in as a jobseeker in France within a certain period of time). Go to the nearest UNEDIC office today and get advice.
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  #31  
Old 22.08.2011, 10:56
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Re: What happens when a Frontalier becomes unemployed?

I thought Frontaliers paid taxes in the country they lived in and only a small amount of tax was taken at source in Switzerland.
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  #32  
Old 22.08.2011, 11:06
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Re: What happens when a Frontalier becomes unemployed?

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And? Have you?
According Art. 4 lit. f) of the relevant French regulation, French unemployment benefits are only payable to residents. That means permanent residents, registered at the mairie. The specific conditions for frantaliers are set out in this document. As you can see, this is all rather long and complicated, and there are time limits (e.g. you must "sign on" in as a jobseeker in France within a certain period of time). Go to the nearest UNEDIC office today and get advice.

Hi there - I will be doing this - please note, i am NOT unemployed currently - I am asking this question now, so that i will be covered should i ever become unemployed (which hopefully will not happen!)

Adrian - No, as a Frontalier on a Swiss contract, i pay all my taxes in Switzerland at source - this i can confirm 100% (in the case of working in Geneva anyway, it may of course vary depending on the canton)

Thanks,

Adrian
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  #33  
Old 22.08.2011, 11:09
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Re: What happens when a Frontalier becomes unemployed?

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Hi there - I will be doing this - please note, i am NOT unemployed currently - I am asking this question now, so that i will be covered should i ever become unemployed (which hopefully will not happen!)
Ooops well, I think it's a good opportunity to register as a "permanent" resident then, I suppose
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  #34  
Old 22.08.2011, 11:20
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You claim unemployment pay where you live.
Interesting point but as I understand it this only applies to social payments. As the deductions made in CH include unemployment insurance then I believe the OP is entitled to RAV. After those payments cease then the op would be able to claim social assistance in France based on contributions made in Switzerland.
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  #35  
Old 22.08.2011, 11:24
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Re: What happens when a Frontalier becomes unemployed?

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I thought Frontaliers paid taxes in the country they lived in and only a small amount of tax was taken at source in Switzerland.
this is correct in Basel, we pay social contributions in CH and income tax in FR. Geneva has a different arrangement though.
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  #36  
Old 22.08.2011, 11:40
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Interesting point but as I understand it this only applies to social payments. As the deductions made in CH include unemployment insurance then I believe the OP is entitled to RAV. After those payments cease then the op would be able to claim social assistance in France based on contributions made in Switzerland.
He will be a job seeker where he lives, he can move to another country & claim there. Unless he lives in CH he can't claim here.
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  #37  
Old 22.08.2011, 11:47
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Re: What happens when a Frontalier becomes unemployed?

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this is correct in Basel, we pay social contributions in CH and income tax in FR. Geneva has a different arrangement though.
As does Ticino, which gives 38.8% of what they collect to Italy (but they want to reduce it, Austria for example only gets 12.5%, source)

Tom
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  #38  
Old 22.08.2011, 14:08
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Re: What happens when a Frontalier becomes unemployed?

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He will be a job seeker where he lives, he can move to another country & claim there. Unless he lives in CH he can't claim here.
It's an interesting topic. According to the geneva website ge.ch there is provision for frontaliers:

L’assurance chômage en Suisse couvre les résidents, sous certaines conditions, qu’ils soient Suisses ou étrangers. Les frontaliers qui travaillent dans une entreprise suisse bénéficient également d’une assurance chômage, mais les conditions qui permettent d’en bénéficier et les prestations sont différentes.
PublicitéComment les frontalier et résidents en Suisse bénéficient-ils du chômage ?
Chômage des résidents expatriés (permis B et C)
Chômage des résidents expatriés courte durée (permis L)
Chômage des frontaliers

Rough translation:

Unemployment insurance covers residents in Switzerland, under certain conditions, whether Swiss or foreign. Cross border working in a Swiss company also benefit from unemployment insurance, but the conditions that allow for aid and the benefits are different.

How residents in Switzerland and cross border workers have unemployment rights
  • Unemployment among expatriate residents (permit B and C)
  • Unemployment among short-term expatriate residents (L permit)
  • Unemployment Cross Border Workers
There are reams of information but in summary

if a cross border worker meets the usual preconditions and becomes partially unemployed then the claim is made only in Switzerland and payments made out of Switzerland.

if a cross border worker becomes 100% unemployed then the claim is initially filed in Switzerland and the worker is then provided with a dossier to take to the French authorities and payments are made from France and, if I understand it correctly, cross charged back to Switzerland.

Preumably the same applies with any other EU state due to bilateral agreements but I'd also guess that if he moved outside the EU he'd get nothing.
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Old 22.08.2011, 16:26
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Re: What happens when a Frontalier becomes unemployed?

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It's an interesting topic. According to the geneva website ge.ch there is provision for frontaliers:

L’assurance chômage en Suisse couvre les résidents, sous certaines conditions, qu’ils soient Suisses ou étrangers. Les frontaliers qui travaillent dans une entreprise suisse bénéficient également d’une assurance chômage, mais les conditions qui permettent d’en bénéficier et les prestations sont différentes.
PublicitéComment les frontalier et résidents en Suisse bénéficient-ils du chômage ?
Chômage des résidents expatriés (permis B et C)
Chômage des résidents expatriés courte durée (permis L)
Chômage des frontaliers

Rough translation:

Unemployment insurance covers residents in Switzerland, under certain conditions, whether Swiss or foreign. Cross border working in a Swiss company also benefit from unemployment insurance, but the conditions that allow for aid and the benefits are different.

How residents in Switzerland and cross border workers have unemployment rights
  • Unemployment among expatriate residents (permit B and C)
  • Unemployment among short-term expatriate residents (L permit)
  • Unemployment Cross Border Workers
There are reams of information but in summary

if a cross border worker meets the usual preconditions and becomes partially unemployed then the claim is made only in Switzerland and payments made out of Switzerland.

if a cross border worker becomes 100% unemployed then the claim is initially filed in Switzerland and the worker is then provided with a dossier to take to the French authorities and payments are made from France and, if I understand it correctly, cross charged back to Switzerland.

Preumably the same applies with any other EU state due to bilateral agreements but I'd also guess that if he moved outside the EU he'd get nothing.

Thanks for this - i also saw this information about becoming 100% unemployed and having to take a dossier to the French authorities to claim there - but would i then be entitled to the Swiss version of Chomage (a higher rate) or the French version?

This is what led me to ask my original question (and worry) that as i haven't yet officially registered as a permanent resident of France, the French authorities could turn around and point me towards the UK to claim unemployment benefits, which would not be a very good situation at all!

Looks like i'll be making it known i am a permanent resident asap.. thanks again for the info!
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Old 22.08.2011, 19:06
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Thanks for this - i also saw this information about becoming 100% unemployed and having to take a dossier to the French authorities to claim there - but would i then be entitled to the Swiss version of Chomage (a higher rate) or the French version?

This is what led me to ask my original question (and worry) that as i haven't yet officially registered as a permanent resident of France, the French authorities could turn around and point me towards the UK to claim unemployment benefits, which would not be a very good situation at all!

Looks like i'll be making it known i am a permanent resident asap.. thanks again for the info!
You get the French rate, chomage very happy to tell people they can go to another country for 3 months & register in the new country. Payout is as if you lived & worked in the new country.
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