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Old 02.09.2011, 11:47
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Maintain swiss residency but live in France?

Hi there,

So *maybe* a hair-ball idea, but we were thinking if it was possible to buy a small studio apartment in Switzerland, in which to have our formal address, BUT also to buy an apartment in France, where we'd actually live. That way we maintain all the benefits of having the Swiss B permit, but live in a nice comfy (reasonable cost) apartment in France. We'd sublet the studio in Switzerland to have it pay its own mortgage. Probably the studio would be in the mountains, like verbier, and cost 200k. We'd sublet it for winter, and use it ourselves in summer. A nice 2 bedroom apartment in France would cost around 400k (chf). So in total, we'd have swiss residency, a studio in the mountains, and a nice place to live so in all for around 600k. As opposed to spending 1mio for a 2bedroom place in Geneva...

Totally crazy idea?
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Old 02.09.2011, 11:53
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Re: Maintain swiss residency but live in France?

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Hi there,

So *maybe* a hair-ball idea, but we were thinking if it was possible to buy a small studio apartment in Switzerland, in which to have our formal address, BUT also to buy an apartment in France, where we'd actually live. That way we maintain all the benefits of having the Swiss B permit, but live in a nice comfy (reasonable cost) apartment in France. We'd sublet the studio in Switzerland to have it pay its own mortgage. Probably the studio would be in the mountains, like verbier, and cost 200k. We'd sublet it for winter, and use it ourselves in summer. A nice 2 bedroom apartment in France would cost around 400k (chf). So in total, we'd have swiss residency, a studio in the mountains, and a nice place to live so in all for around 600k. As opposed to spending 1mio for a 2bedroom place in Geneva...

Totally crazy idea?
You can buy real estates in CH with B permit but not rent them out, this is gonna be your main problem
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Old 02.09.2011, 11:55
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Re: Maintain swiss residency but live in France?

Ah yes, good point. After 5 years we can get C permits right? And then rent them out?

Could also do some non official sub-let I guess... not ideal
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Old 02.09.2011, 11:56
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Re: Maintain swiss residency but live in France?

I think this has been covered before on the forum, so please have a look.

But if I recall correctly, it will likely not be possible withouth running afoul of the law. You would need to be registered in CH. Your tenant would also need to be registered at the same address. Think about the double taxation also, the French will want to tax you if you are not frontalier. Swiss will tax you as a resident.
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Old 02.09.2011, 11:58
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Re: Maintain swiss residency but live in France?

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Ah yes, good point. After 5 years we can get C permits right? And then rent them out?

Could also do some non official sub-let I guess... not ideal
Non official sub-let = Illegal and will be discovered once your tenant register the new address
Living in FR and working in CH = Permit G (Frontalier) if i'm correct, you don't get a B
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Old 02.09.2011, 12:11
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Re: Maintain swiss residency but live in France?

I would also verify the numbers a bit too. 200k for Verbier and 400k in the Geneva area of France sounds very low, if not totally unrealistic. And depending on the size of your family, a studio is generally for one person, possibly two, but try to register a family in a studio and you are in for trouble.
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Old 02.09.2011, 12:19
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Re: Maintain swiss residency but live in France?

The feasibility of such a plan depends on where the OP comes from. EU citizens have more generous property rights in Switzerland than those from outside the EU.
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Old 02.09.2011, 12:35
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Re: Maintain swiss residency but live in France?

Well a studio in Verbier, you can cheap one for 1-2 pers 200k. Basic and simple, certainly not luxury. Perfect to rent out to a ski bum during winter months.

Arund Geneva you can certainly get a decent apartment in France.. eg Divonne for 300-350k euro. It depends on your size and quality, but for what we need you can certainly find something in that range.

People buy holiday homes in France all the time, they dont need to pay French taxes, they simply own a property in France no?

It would effectively be an EU citizen, living in switzerland, working in Switzerland, who has a property in Switzerland, and owns a second property (or holiday home) in France...

And people share apartments, and register their permits etc.. there's no rule one property = one permit ?

I'm an EU citizen btw...

As I said, maybe its a hair-ball idea, but when you live in Switzerland on a regular decent, but not banking salary, and want to buy property you need to think creatively, no? .... just thinking out of the box as they say!
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Old 02.09.2011, 13:00
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Re: Maintain swiss residency but live in France?

There is no reason you can't do that. You may have some complex tax returns to complete but that's about all.
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Old 02.09.2011, 13:13
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Re: Maintain swiss residency but live in France?

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Maintain swiss residency but live in France?
I'm going to be a bit of a hard-ass with my answer:

resˇiˇdence

   /ˈrɛzɪdəns/ [rez-i-duhns] noun

1. the place, especially the house, in which a person lives or resides; dwelling place; home: Their residence is in New York City.
2. a structure serving as a dwelling or home, especially one of large proportion and superior quality: They have a summer residence in Connecticut.
3. the act or fact of residing: during his residence in Spain.
4. the act of living or staying in a specified place while performing official duties, carrying on studies or research, awaiting a divorce, etc.
5. the time during which a person resides in a place: a residence there of five years.

So the short of it is, if you live in France, then you are a resident of France. You cannot live in France and be a resident of Switzerland if you do not LIVE here.
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Old 02.09.2011, 14:14
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Re: Maintain swiss residency but live in France?

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You cannot live in France and be a resident of Switzerland if you do not LIVE here.
That was the op's starting position to be sure - but it was toned down a bit later. As an EU citizen the op is perfectly entitles to reside in SWitzerland but have a holiday home in France. How the time between those is managed will define where the op is determined to be resident for tax and social secuirty purposes. Other than that it's really not an issue.
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Old 02.09.2011, 15:09
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Re: Maintain swiss residency but live in France?

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That was the op's starting position to be sure - but it was toned down a bit later. As an EU citizen the op is perfectly entitles to reside in SWitzerland but have a holiday home in France. How the time between those is managed will define where the op is determined to be resident for tax and social secuirty purposes. Other than that it's really not an issue.
That's not what the OP wants to do. He wants to live in France but have all the benefits of being a Swiss resident. Sorry, but WTF? No wonder people are starting get PO'd.

The authorities are not stupid. If you own a 50m2 apart in Verbier and a 150m2 apartment in Divonne, they will assume your are living in Divonne. Not to mention that you'll have to declare your rental income from the Verbier property.
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Old 02.09.2011, 15:17
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Re: Maintain swiss residency but live in France?

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I would also verify the numbers a bit too. 200k for Verbier and 400k in the Geneva area of France sounds very low, if not totally unrealistic. And depending on the size of your family, a studio is generally for one person, possibly two, but try to register a family in a studio and you are in for trouble.
Verbier ha probably the most expensive apartments in CH, New builds are running at 24,000CHF a m2. Even junky old flats are 15k a m2.

Some of the properties are designated holiday homes so I don't know if that means you cant live there.
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Old 02.09.2011, 15:20
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Re: Maintain swiss residency but live in France?

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Verbier ha probably the most expensive apartments in CH, New builds are running at 24,000CHF a m2. Even junky old flats are 15k a m2.

Some of the properties are designated holiday homes so I don't know if that means you cant live there.
I think it means limited occupancy - I know one in a local ski place was for sale but you could only occupy it 37 weeks of the year. Probably different for each commune though.
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Old 02.09.2011, 15:26
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Re: Maintain swiss residency but live in France?

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That's not what the OP wants to do. He wants to live in France but have all the benefits of being a Swiss resident. Sorry, but WTF? No wonder people are starting get PO'd.

Again, it looked that way to start but the tune appeared to changed:

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It would effectively be an EU citizen, living in switzerland, working in Switzerland, who has a property in Switzerland, and owns a second property (or holiday home) in France...
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The authorities are not stupid. If you own a 50m2 apart in Verbier and a 150m2 apartment in Divonne, they will assume your are living in Divonne. Not to mention that you'll have to declare your rental income from the Verbier property.
Assumptions can not be used in law . Assuming (oops, there I go) you spend enough days in a country to qualify for residence then where's the problem?
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Old 02.09.2011, 16:04
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Re: Maintain swiss residency but live in France?

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Again, it looked that way to start but the tune appeared to changed:





Assumptions can not be used in law . Assuming (oops, there I go) you spend enough days in a country to qualify for residence then where's the problem?
Yeah. I didn't see no tide changing. But it's only 11am here. Maybe I'm still sleep.

There is no problem if he lives the required days in CH. Again, didn't sound like that was the plan to me.

Huh? Yeah. The authorities certainly can (and sometimes do) assume fraud and open an investigation.

But I've said my piece. The OP has his life to lead & I have mine. So, I'll go back to minding my own bizniz (or at least bother someone else's thread ).
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Old 02.09.2011, 16:22
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Re: Maintain swiss residency but live in France?

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Not to mention that you'll have to declare your rental income from the Verbier property.
I believe that the rental income is tax free, as your are already taxed on your notional rental value as a home owner. I looked at this once, it may have changed & cantons are not all the same.

Best FMF
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Old 02.09.2011, 16:35
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Re: Maintain swiss residency but live in France?

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I believe that the rental income is tax free, as your are already taxed on your notional rental value as a home owner. I looked at this once, it may have changed & cantons are not all the same.

Best FMF
Sure. I don't know if it's taxed or not. My point was that he can't be living there AND be renting it out.
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