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  #261  
Old 09.08.2014, 19:13
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years?

I just read on the Tribune de Genève (print edition only, no link) that there won't be a referendum: the Socialists think it's a battle they can't win (considering the result of the 2013 referendum on asylum), and the Green Party won't go alone.

So the law will enter into force on or soon after 9 October.
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  #262  
Old 09.08.2014, 21:11
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years?

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Nope they are allowed to apply for naturalisation in their canton of residence under the same conditions as anybody else at the moment. Unless there is an exception for them then under the new system they will no longer be eligible.

http://www.vpb.admin.ch/deutsch/doc/64/64.23.html
Returning to this point about who will be able to apply for citizenship under the new law, it's Article 9, section a, that lays out the prerequisites for ordinary naturalization, and one is that the applicant must have an "autorisation d’établissement" -- I presume this means a C permit.

However, there is some good news for those who hold a "carte de legitimation" in Article 33, which relates to how the qualifying period of residence will be calculated for people with different kinds of documentation. In addition to saying that periods with a residence permit (an "autorisation de séjour ou d’établissement" -- so, a B or C permit?) and that periods of "provisional admission" will get half-credit, it says that periods with "une carte de légitimation délivrée par le Département fédéral des affaires étrangères ou d’un titre de séjour similaire" will also count.

I guess it remains to be seen what exactly qualifies as residence permission "similar" to a "carte de legitimation" -- and I'm not familiar with what all the categories are myself -- but this seems to indicate that periods of residence with that documentation will count towards the required 10 years.

However, per Article 9, section a, it seems that those without a C permit would need to take the extra step of getting on of those before proceeding to apply for citizenship.

For reference, the full text of the new law is available as a PDF file (with versions in German, French, and Italian) via the "FF 2014 5001" link on this page:
http://www.admin.ch/opc/fr/classifie...0/history.html
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  #263  
Old 11.08.2014, 13:19
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years?

Art. 9. says that, to apply for regular naturalization you need to:

a. have a C permit at the moment of application
b. have been living in Switzerland (1) for 10 years in total, and (2) not less than 3 years in the past 5 years.

Everything below about the permis de séjour, carte de legitimation... etc. explains how the residence period in letter b is calculated. For this, even an L permit will count towards the 10 years' residence. Nothing will change letter a: at the moment of application, you need to have permit C. No derogation.

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Returning to this point about who will be able to apply for citizenship under the new law, it's Article 9, section a, that lays out the prerequisites for ordinary naturalization, and one is that the applicant must have an "autorisation d’établissement" -- I presume this means a C permit.

However, there is some good news for those who hold a "carte de legitimation" in Article 33, which relates to how the qualifying period of residence will be calculated for people with different kinds of documentation. In addition to saying that periods with a residence permit (an "autorisation de séjour ou d’établissement" -- so, a B or C permit?) and that periods of "provisional admission" will get half-credit, it says that periods with "une carte de légitimation délivrée par le Département fédéral des affaires étrangères ou d’un titre de séjour similaire" will also count.

I guess it remains to be seen what exactly qualifies as residence permission "similar" to a "carte de legitimation" -- and I'm not familiar with what all the categories are myself -- but this seems to indicate that periods of residence with that documentation will count towards the required 10 years.

However, per Article 9, section a, it seems that those without a C permit would need to take the extra step of getting on of those before proceeding to apply for citizenship.

For reference, the full text of the new law is available as a PDF file (with versions in German, French, and Italian) via the "FF 2014 5001" link on this page:
http://www.admin.ch/opc/fr/classifie...0/history.html

Last edited by happyrobbie; 11.08.2014 at 13:49.
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  #264  
Old 11.08.2014, 13:45
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years?

Well, I said no derogation about C permit. But maybe there is one in art. 10, which gives a derogation for same-sex partners of Swiss citizens. Art. 10 says that in such cases the applicant should have been living in Switzerland for 5 years in total and having been in the partnership for 3 years. This is actually "a regular naturalization for same-sex partners with the same federal-level residence requirement as the facilitated naturalization in the case of marriage". But at least two questions remain unclear.

1. Whether this is only a shortened federal-level residence requirement, or it also overwrites the cantonal/communal level requirement. My understanding is the former. Since it is still in the regular naturalization framework, the same-sex partners should satisfy the nationality law (droit de cité) of the canton. This means that, for example, a same-sex partner still has to wait 8-12 years if he/she lives in canton Oberwald, Uri, appenzell... Except if the cantons change their own nationality law to make some advantage for the same-sex partners.

2. Whether art. 10 is self-complete, or if it is only a re-definition of the letter b of art. 9. This can be important as it will determine whether the requirement of permit C (art. 9 letter a.) is still applicable. From the title of art. 10 "Conditions en cas de partenariat enregistré", it seems to be self-complete due to the experession "conditions en cas de..." instead of "condition de séjour en cas de...". But anyway the relation of art. 9 and art. 10 is very ambiguous.



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Art. 9. says that, to apply for regular naturalization you need to:

a. have a C permit at the moment of application
b. have been living in Switzerland (1) for 10 years in total, and (2) not less than 3 years in the past 5 years.

Everything below about the permit etc. explains how the residence period in letter b is calculated. For this, even an L permit will count towards the 10 years' residence. Nothing will change letter a: at the moment of application, you need to have permit C. No derogation.

Last edited by happyrobbie; 11.08.2014 at 13:58.
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  #265  
Old 11.08.2014, 14:00
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years?

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10 is very ambiguous.
It's made for it. There was no chance to get same sex partners access to facilitated naturalization without fighting the small cantons and a large one. We all know which ones. Bern decided to keep life easy to partnered people where it already is easy and keep the status quo where life is already hard enough for said population the way it is. Bern waits for the next opportunity to get full equality without creating more trouble than solving problems even if they have to wait a very very long time.

In other words, it is meant to be transitional. As long as full marriage as marriage is not open to same sex partners but the list of rights denied is getting smaller and smaller, let's call that compromise a good solution to get the most out of what is possible to get at this point in time. If there is an opportunity to get full marriage equality, then this compromise is of no use anymore but did bring enough good things to the people concerned in the mean time.

In the case full marriage equality is not accepted in a reasonable future, there will be a need to clarify. For the time being, everybody saves themselves the fight.
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  #266  
Old 11.08.2014, 14:14
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years?

Actually, the simplest way to treat same-sex partnership in the nationality law is to include them in the facilitated naturalization. They only have to change one thing in art. 21: add the word "registered partnership" in the definition of "conjoint" of swiss citizen. Everything else keeps untouched. This makes the life so much easier.

But they did not do this. Instead they change the regular naturalization section to include some advantages for same-sex partners which are "analogous" to the facilitated naturalization. But then what you need to do is not just to add a word but change many things, and for me this introduces ambiguities (such as the applicability of cantonal-level requirement, the C permit, whether arts. 9,11,12,18... are still applicable)... It's just a mess for me.

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It's made for it. There was no chance to get same sex partners access to facilitated naturalization without fighting the small cantons and a large one. We all know which ones. Bern decided to keep life easy to partnered people where it already is easy and keep the status quo where life is already hard enough for said population the way it is. Bern waits for the next opportunity to get full equality without creating more trouble than solving problems even if they have to wait a very very long time.

In other words, it is meant to be transitional. As long as full marriage as marriage is not open to same sex partners but the list of rights denied is getting smaller and smaller, let's call that compromise a good solution to get the most out of what is possible to get at this point in time. If there is an opportunity to get full marriage equality, then this compromise is of no use anymore but did bring enough good things to the people concerned in the mean time.

In the case full marriage equality is not accepted in a reasonable future, there will be a need to clarify. For the time being, everybody saves themselves the fight.
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  #267  
Old 11.08.2014, 14:18
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years?

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Actually, the simplest way to treat same-sex partnership in the nationality law is to include them in the facilitated naturalization.
Yea, but this is precisely what some people wanted to prevent from happening.
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Old 11.08.2014, 14:18
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years?

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Art. 9. says that, to apply for regular naturalization you need to:

a. have a C permit at the moment of application
b. have been living in Switzerland (1) for 10 years in total, and (2) not less than 3 years in the past 5 years.

Everything below about the permit etc. explains how the residence period in letter b is calculated. For this, even an L permit will count towards the 10 years' residence. Nothing will change letter a: at the moment of application, you need to have permit C. No derogation.
Indeed. I hope it's clear that this is what I was saying in my post above: Under the new law, holding a C permit will become a requirement for regular naturalization. Period/full stop.

Holders of other kinds of residence permits (B permits and, as happyrobbie points out, L permits, for example) and other kinds of documentation (a carte de legitimation, for instance) can count periods of residence in those categories towards the residence requirement specified in Art. 9, paragraph 1, section b, but, per Art. 9, paragraph 1, section a, will need to obtain a C permit before they can apply for citizenship.

Also, per Art. 33, section 1, paragraph b, there are "provisional" categories of residence that give only half-credit towards the residence requirement. So, 2 years on, say, an F permit would only give someone only 1 year of credit towards the residence requirement for naturalization. (I'm not sure what other kinds of permits, if any, are considered "provisional"; in the case of F permit holders, these would generally be migrants with no legal basis to remain in Switzerland but who cannot, for whatever reason, be returned to their home countries.) In any case, setting aside the residence requirements, any would-be applicants for citizenship with these kinds of permits would now -- like everyone else -- have to obtain a C permit before being able to apply.

As was discussed in the debate over and press comment on the new law, the C-permit prerequisite has the effect of considerably tightening up the requirements for naturalization, even if the residence requirement will now be reduced from 12 to 10 years. Whether or not this is a good or desirable thing will depend on one's political point of view, but it does strike me that the requirement does not appear to be any different from the requirement in places like the US, the UK, and Australia (to mention just a few cases that I am aware of) that applicants for citizenship hold unrestricted permanent resident status ... and indeed the requirement in those countries and others is that applicants have held that status for an extended period of time. So in Switzerland, the overall required residence period is longer (10 years vs. 4 or 5 in the countries I mentioned), but permanent resident status needs only to be held at the time of application rather than for 1 to 5 years beforehand.
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  #269  
Old 11.08.2014, 14:24
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years?

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1. Whether this is only a shortened federal-level residence requirement, or it also overwrites the cantonal/communal level requirement. My understanding is the former. Since it is still in the regular naturalization framework, the same-sex partners should satisfy the nationality law (droit de cité) of the canton. This means that, for example, a same-sex partner still has to wait 8-12 years if he/she lives in canton Oberwald, Uri, appenzell... Except if the cantons change their own nationality law to make some advantage for the same-sex partners.
Good questions about Art. 10. I can't see exactly how it fits in, either, but doesn't Art. 18 limit the cantonal residence requirement to between 2 and 5 years -- with the effect that cantonal residence requirements and the residence requirements specified in Art. 10 couldn't conflict? Or am I misunderstanding Art. 18?
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  #270  
Old 11.08.2014, 14:26
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years?

In real life, the grey-zone compromise for partnered same sex couples seems to be:
- If the foreign partner is allowed to get a C permit after 5 years anyway, Bern doesn't demand to do the paper work for C permit and to get the paper work for naturalization the same day the partner gets the C permit in the post. I'd love to see a real case of that being processed and see how the law is applied.
- If the foreign partner is not allowed to get C permit after 5 years, Bern doesn't mind the difference of legal treatment between heterosexual married couples and homosexual partnered couples. Whether that's legal even by Swiss constitution is a question other people than I should answer but a question everybody is entitled to ask.
- If Jhm3 in the message above is right, Bern tied the cantons up and made sure the federal 5 years do not conflict with cantonal years. I'd love seeing that applied in the canton we all know that they don't want that. In that case, it is a de facto facilitated naturalization under a different label.
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  #271  
Old 11.08.2014, 14:27
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years?

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Good questions about Art. 10. I can't see exactly how it fits in, either, but doesn't Art. 18 limit the cantonal residence requirement to between 2 and 5 years -- with the effect that cantonal residence requirements and the residence requirements specified in Art. 10 couldn't conflict? Or am I misunderstanding Art. 18?
It's not simple as this. Cantonal requirements, whether it is 10 years in some cantons currently, or 5 years maximum after the new law, is continuous, while art. 10 does not require that you live in the same canton during the past 5 years. This makes a big difference if one changes canton.
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  #272  
Old 11.08.2014, 14:37
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years?

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In real life, the grey-zone compromise for partnered same sex couples seems to be:
- If the foreign partner is allowed to get a C permit after 5 years anyway, Bern doesn't demand to do the paper work for C permit and to get the paper work for naturalization the same day the partner gets the C permit in the post. I'd love to see a real case of that being processed and see how the law is applied.
- If the foreign partner is not allowed to get C permit after 5 years, Bern doesn't mind the difference of legal treatment between heterosexual married couples and homosexual partnered couples. Whether that's legal even by Swiss constitution is a question other people than I should answer but a question everybody is entitled to ask.
- If Jhm3 in the message above is right, Bern tied the cantons up and made sure the federal 5 years do not conflict with cantonal years. I'd love seeing that applied in the canton we all know that they don't want that. In that case, it is a de facto facilitated naturalization under a different label.
- When they modified the LEtr (federal law on foreigners) which controls the residence permits, they chose the simplest way: same-sex partnership is added into the definition of "conjoint" therefore is treated in the same way as marriage. So, same-sex partners will get C permit after 5 years residence and partnership.

- There can still be conflicts in case of moving cantons. The 5 years in art. 10 does not care if you move to another canton, but the nationality law of the new canton where you move in does care.
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  #273  
Old 11.08.2014, 14:45
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years?

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- There can still be conflicts in case of moving cantons. The 5 years in art. 10 does not care if you move to another canton, but the nationality law of the new canton where you move in does care.
Exactly what I understood first (message 272). The cantons will have the last word, you can be sure about that. No way some of the cantons, we all know which ones, will change if not forced by referendum. To me, it's a way to get somewhere instead of having those cantons block the whole thing for the whole country.
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  #274  
Old 12.08.2014, 12:08
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years?

I'm curious - where in the Swiss law does it actually say that holders of DFAE-issued cartes de legitimation cannot apply for a permit C?
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  #275  
Old 13.08.2014, 22:52
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years?

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I'm curious - where in the Swiss law does it actually say that holders of DFAE-issued cartes de legitimation cannot apply for a permit C?
I think you can apply c when you are in switzerland for 5years and pass certain language leevel, zurich it is B1
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  #276  
Old 13.08.2014, 22:55
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years?

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i think you can apply c when you are in switzerland for 5years with a b permit and pass certain language leevel, zurich it is b1
ftfy
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  #277  
Old 13.08.2014, 23:03
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years?

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I think you can apply c when you are in switzerland for 5years and pass certain language leevel, zurich it is B1
And if you're EU. Non EU is usually 10 years for a C permit but can be requested after 5 if good integration can be shown.

A C permit is never guaranteed though and you could end up on a B permit for ever. ( rarely happens at the moment but with the recent immigration vote who knows what will happen in the future).
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  #278  
Old 14.08.2014, 11:01
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years?

The new law also regularizes a bit the procedure of regular naturalization.

So far, the regular naturalization varies a lot in terms of procedure in different cantons, especially in the order of treatment in the three levels (communal, cantonal, federal). For example, in some cantons (e.g. VS...) the order is commune->federation->canton. The dossier is treated first by the commune, then sent to the FOM to make the federal authorization, and then finally sent back to canton for the final decision. In some cantons (such as BE), the order is commune-canton-federal. And generally there is no time limit for the whole procedure.

The new law regularizes the procedure as follows (art. 13):
1. The canton (and the commune*) first give a positive pre-notice (préavis).
2. The dossier is sent to FOM for a federal authorization and then sent back to canton.
3. The canton makes the decision. This step takes maximum 1 year**.
4. Upon the positive decision from the canton, the applicant gets communal-cantonal-federal nationalities immediately.

So the procedure seems to be more unified, and now there is a time limit for step 3 (which in my guess is the most time-consuming step). Do not know whether this will practically reduce the whole procedure time after the law comes into force.

* Depending on the respective cantonal law. In most cantons the commune will also need to give a positive pre-notice.
** The original text says: "Upon federal authorization, the canton makes the naturalization decision in 1 year. After this delay, the federal authorization expires." So it is not clear whether it means "The canton should make a decision in 1 year", or "the canton may not make the decision in 1 year, and if it happens, the application has to start over for a new federal authorization".
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  #279  
Old 14.08.2014, 11:49
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years?

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And if you're EU. Non EU is usually 10 years for a C permit but can be requested after 5 if good integration can be shown.
Or if you're American (and, I think, Canadian) - then the C is fairly automatic after 5 years.
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Old 14.08.2014, 12:34
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years?

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ftfy
That's what I'm looking for - where in the law does it explicitly say that a Permit C can be requested after five years with a Permit B and only a Permit B?
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