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  #501  
Old 01.10.2017, 18:39
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years? [Now 10 years]

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Integration is largely a question of jurisprudence and guidelines set out by the federal government. If you're interested, I would advise reading the federal guidelines:https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/fr/home...rgerrecht.html But in short, presence in Switzerland is not integration. You'll probably need to provide references from at least 2 Swiss citizens in your canton, maybe even within your municipality. Having a job, kids in education/work, paying taxes, language abilities, and not having criminal convictions will also be taken into account when determining the degree to which a foreigner is integrated.
Thanks, yes, I read the entire new guidelines, which I have as source.
It's not about "also taking into account" the "contacts" are a mandatory requirement, one of the numerous items listed to be verified. So it's not an average with other factors, at least per the new law, it's a must-have, among other must-have you mentioned.

I'm just questioning what they mean by "contact with Swiss", it means nothing and everything. I know in the current/old way about possible visits to Swiss contacts, as I remember they can even interrogate neighbours, if they are Swiss...
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  #502  
Old 01.10.2017, 19:34
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years? [Now 10 years]

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Thanks, yes, I read the entire new guidelines, which I have as source.
It's not about "also taking into account" the "contacts" are a mandatory requirement, one of the numerous items listed to be verified. So it's not an average with other factors, at least per the new law, it's a must-have, among other must-have you mentioned.

I'm just questioning what they mean by "contact with Swiss", it means nothing and everything. I know in the current/old way about possible visits to Swiss contacts, as I remember they can even interrogate neighbours, if they are Swiss...
The problem is that these interviews are a cantonal thing. I can assure you, however, that in Vaud the authorities do not conduct interviews with neighbours or other uninterested parties. In Vaud the procedure involves two interviews: one with the police and then one with the municipal naturalisation committee (which is a committee of the municipal legislature). The actual decision whether or not the grant the municipal droit de cité is taken by the municipal executive (municipalité in Vaud). Without wanting to write an essay, this is because in Switzerland all administrative decisions must be challengeable in court, so the law was changed to make it a more administrative process. What they want to see is that you have a social circle in Switzerland.
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  #503  
Old 09.10.2017, 14:57
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Swiss citizenship from 2018 - years on L permit do not count

Some of you are probably aware of a new federal act on swiss citizenship coming into force as per 1st of January 2018.


Two main changes seem to be:
  • Only applicants holding a C-type permit (permanent residence permit) may apply for Swiss citizenship (currently, holders of B-type residence permits may also apply).
  • The applicant must have resided a total of 10 years in Switzerland (not 12 years as today).






I found out also that, according to the new law the years on L permit do not count towards the 10 years of residency. It is stated FAQ published by Federal secratary for Migration
https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/de/home...ues_recht.html




I was planning to apply for a citizenship in 2018, I would have lived 10 years in Switzerland then. However, out of my 10 years 3 years were spent on L permit. 1 year is for working with terminated contract as an intern and the other 2 years I was issued L permit although I had a permanent contract.


I assume the years on L are not counted towards due to the short term nature of the permit. But in reality, people are given L permit despite permanent contract.


What are your views on this? Anybody with a similar story?
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  #504  
Old 09.10.2017, 15:15
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Re: Swiss citizenship from 2018 - years on L permit do not count

Here the discussion since 2011: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years? [Now 10 years]
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  #505  
Old 09.10.2017, 19:08
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Re: Swiss citizenship from 2018 - years on L permit do not count

Hi Sansar

I have EXACTLY the same case: planning citizenship in 2018 (10 years will be then), but got L for 3 years (2008: fixed length work contract, 2009 and 2010: unlimited permanent work contract). From the forumers answer I understand, that L will NOT count indeed, so for us effectively will need 13 years instead of 10....

I will ask the migration office however in 2018.

Any other views?
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  #506  
Old 09.10.2017, 19:18
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years? [Now 10 years]

No point in asking the migration office, the new law is clear. Years on L permits no longer count. If there's any way you can apply before January 1st then do so, then you'll come under the current rules. If it's that date or later the new rules apply.
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  #507  
Old 09.10.2017, 19:19
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years? [Now 10 years]

@hokuszpok Glad there is somebody I can share. Unfortunately, since the information on L permit is released by the federal secretary for migration itself, it is quite official. I was wondering what the chances are, if we use lawyers to work on the argument that the years with L permit on unterminated contract should count
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  #508  
Old 09.10.2017, 19:25
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years? [Now 10 years]

Don't waste your money. Your problem comes from being a non-EU national and most start with L permits. The Swiss know that, but won't make any execeptions.
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  #509  
Old 09.10.2017, 19:27
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years? [Now 10 years]

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@hokuszpok Glad there is somebody I can share. Unfortunately, since the information on L permit is released by the federal secretary for migration itself, it is quite official. I was wondering what the chances are, if we use lawyers to work on the argument that the years with L permit on unterminated contract should count
0%

More importantly it is also stated in the new law. The issue was brought up and discussed during the public discussion period (Vernehmlassung) as well as during parliament discussion.

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Art. 33 of the new citizenship law, says that only "Aufenthalts- and Neiderlassungsbewiligungen" / Residence permit (B) and permanent residence permit (B) count.
https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/federal-.../2014/5133.pdf

This in contrast to the foreign nationals act (https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...232/index.html) which sees Kurzaufenhaltsbewilligung (short stay permit) as something distinctly different from the Aufenthaltsbewiligung (residence permit).

See for ex. Art. 34 regarding eligibility for permit C Niederlassungsbewilligung (Permanent Residence Permit) where Kurzaufenhaltsbewilligung (short stay permit L) is explicitetly mentioned.
https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...index.html#a34

Additionaly, during the Vernehmlassung (public consultation process) the ex- or inclusion of Permit L Kurzaufenhaltsbewilligung (short stay permit) was discussed.
https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...g/ve-ber-d.pdf

Finally during the parliamentary discussion it was also a topic if Permit L Kurzaufenhaltsbewilligung (short stay permit) should be included or not.
https://www.parlament.ch/de/ratsbetr...ubjectId=24816 it was decided that it should not count hence the law as it is.
As the Swiss voters did not veto the law, it is as it is. Time on Permit L does not count for citizenship residency requirement.
https://www.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/rf/ref_2_2_3_1.html
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  #510  
Old 10.10.2017, 00:02
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years? [Now 10 years]

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0%

More importantly it is also stated in the new law. The issue was brought up and discussed during the public discussion period (Vernehmlassung) as well as during parliament discussion.



As the Swiss voters did not veto the law, it is as it is. Time on Permit L does not count for citizenship residency requirement.
https://www.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/rf/ref_2_2_3_1.html
This is completely correct. Not only is the legislation clear, but even if it weren’t and even if it violated the constituon, there’s noting a court could do. Federal laws cannot be invalidated by courts, nor can courts refuse to enforce them.
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  #511  
Old 10.10.2017, 13:03
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years? [Now 10 years]

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More importantly it is also stated in the new law. The issue was brought up and discussed during the public discussion period (Vernehmlassung) as well as during parliament discussion.

As the Swiss voters did not veto the law, it is as it is. Time on Permit L does not count for citizenship residency requirement.
https://www.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/rf/ref_2_2_3_1.html
I totally agree with your points, but I'd like to note that the very Art. 34 AuG you were quoting also contains Abs. 4 regarding early C permits saying
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Sie [Die Niederlassungsbewilligung] kann bei erfolgreicher Integration, namentlich wenn die betroffene Person über gute Kenntnisse einer Landessprache verfügt, nach ununterbrochenem Aufenthalt mit Aufenthaltsbewilligung während der letzten fünf Jahre erteilt werden.
This paragraph also expressly requires all 5 years to be spent on an Aufenthaltsbewilligung (B permit) before an early C permit can be granted and the SEM can enforce this at the federal level because all early C permits have to be approved by the SEM after the canton is ready to issue them, but we know as a fact that they don't enforce that and e.g. in Zurich one can get an early non-EU C permit after 2 years on an L + 3 years on B, which is against the letter of AuG.
So maybe there is a chance that they will relax this in practice. It will probably take a number of years after the new law comes in force, this being Switzerland and all
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  #512  
Old 10.10.2017, 13:06
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years? [Now 10 years]

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So maybe there is a chance that they will relax this in practice. It will probably take a number of years after the new law comes in force, this being Switzerland and all
Isn´t the new law applicable and in force as from 01.01.2018? Why do you think any authority would wait?
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  #513  
Old 10.10.2017, 13:18
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years? [Now 10 years]

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Isn´t the new law applicable and in force as from 01.01.2018? Why do you think any authority would wait?
The law itself comes into force on Jan 1 2018, right.
I'm talking about its implementation which can change over time.
E.g. the Art. 34 Abs. 4 AuG regarding early C permits was there for quite a long time. I know that 6-7 years ago Canton Zurich was actually enforcing the '5 years on a B permit' rule, then a colleague of mine tried going for a C permit with a 2L+3B situation in 2014 and surprisingly it worked, then in 2015 or so Migrationsamt Zurich published their official bylaw regarding C permits which stated that 2L+3B will in fact be accepted provided that the L permits were backed by a permanent contract.

So, as you can see, the implementation of a particular AuG article has changed without a single letter changing in the article itself.
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  #514  
Old 10.10.2017, 13:21
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years? [Now 10 years]

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Isn´t the new law applicable and in force as from 01.01.2018? Why do you think any authority would wait?
I have to agree. This thread was started in December of 2011, referring to discussions in parliament back in March 2011.

I think the idea of the new law is to establish consistency across the board instead of having so many variations at the local level.
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  #515  
Old 10.10.2017, 13:30
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years? [Now 10 years]

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I totally agree with your points, but I'd like to note that the very Art. 34 AuG you were quoting also contains Abs. 4 regarding early C permits saying


This paragraph also expressly requires all 5 years to be spent on an Aufenthaltsbewilligung (B permit) before an early C permit can be granted and the SEM can enforce this at the federal level because all early C permits have to be approved by the SEM after the canton is ready to issue them, but we know as a fact that they don't enforce that and e.g. in Zurich one can get an early non-EU C permit after 2 years on an L + 3 years on B, which is against the letter of AuG.
So maybe there is a chance that they will relax this in practice. It will probably take a number of years after the new law comes in force, this being Switzerland and all
I did get an early C permit exactly how you wrote, counting the student B permit and 2 years on L while working on permanent contract.

Migrationsamt Zurich has released a document how the student years and the years on L permit will count towards 5 years of residency required for early C permit. The condition was that the work contract after graduation was permanent.

Therefore, I wonder when applying for the citizenship in 2018 practice would follow the same exceptions regarding L permit as for early C application.
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  #516  
Old 10.10.2017, 13:53
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years? [Now 10 years]

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I did get an early C permit exactly how you wrote, counting the student B permit and 2 years on L while working on permanent contract.

Migrationsamt Zurich has released a document how the student years and the years on L permit will count towards 5 years of residency required for early C permit. The condition was that the work contract after graduation was permanent.

Therefore, I wonder when applying for the citizenship in 2018 practice would follow the same exceptions regarding L permit as for early C application.
Again, no. The new law is quite clear - years spent on an L permit will not count for the residency requirement.
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  #517  
Old 10.10.2017, 14:22
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years? [Now 10 years]

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I did get an early C permit exactly how you wrote, counting the student B permit and 2 years on L while working on permanent contract.

Migrationsamt Zurich has released a document how the student years and the years on L permit will count towards 5 years of residency required for early C permit. The condition was that the work contract after graduation was permanent.

Therefore, I wonder when applying for the citizenship in 2018 practice would follow the same exceptions regarding L permit as for early C application.
Years on L will not be calculated and it is very clearly answered in FAQ's on new Citizenship Law comoing into effect from 1.1.18, as documented on
https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/de/home...ues_recht.html

Werden die Jahre mit Ausweis N (Asylsuchende) und F (vorläufig Aufgenommene) angerechnet?
Die Jahre mit Ausweis N werden nicht angerechnet; die Jahre mit Ausweis F werden zur Hälfte angerechnet (Art. 33 Abs. 1 lit. b nBüG).

Werden die Jahre mit Ausweis L (Kurzaufenthalter) angerechnet?
Die Jahre mit Ausweis L werden nicht angerechnet.
Please do not confuse L being considered towards early C-Permit applications.

Therefore, years on L will not be calculated, as clearly stated.

Last edited by BigB.ZH; 10.10.2017 at 14:23. Reason: better viewing
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  #518  
Old 10.10.2017, 14:28
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years? [Now 10 years]

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I did get an early C permit exactly how you wrote, counting the student B permit and 2 years on L while working on permanent contract.

Migrationsamt Zurich has released a document how the student years and the years on L permit will count towards 5 years of residency required for early C permit. The condition was that the work contract after graduation was permanent.

Therefore, I wonder when applying for the citizenship in 2018 practice would follow the same exceptions regarding L permit as for early C application.
In the light of that. Hmm. ...

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[

Please do not confuse L being considered towards early C-Permit applications.
But the law also clearly says that times on L does not count for early C. T
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  #519  
Old 10.10.2017, 15:00
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years? [Now 10 years]

I think the L counting for a C permit is simply the cantonal/Federal government's way of dealing with the fact that there are more non-EU nationals with L permits than B's. The Federal government has cut quotas for both the last few years.

The new citizenship law is quite different since under current law B permit holders can also apply for citizenship. So if they can't/don't get a C permit they can't apply for citizenship either. NGO Ci permit holders can no longer apply for citizenship with that type of permit, though their years in Switzerland will count for residency purposes if they can get a C permit once they move to a non-NGO job/retire. When laws change some people lose out, unfortunately you're one of them. Suck it up and stop trying to come up with a way to get around the new law - because it ain't going to happen.
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  #520  
Old 12.10.2017, 22:08
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Re: Swiss Citizenship after 8 years? [Now 10 years]

Howdy! I have the “C” permit, passed the B1 German exam, and have lived in Zurich since July 2007.

From Jan 1st, I will meet the new 10 year rule for aquiring a citizenship.

But do I need to wait until then before I can start the process?
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