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  #21  
Old 12.01.2012, 10:07
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Re: UK to CH - Potential Job Offer but return to UK at weekends

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Will you be self employed in CH, it seems unlikely. Employees in the UK are unable to direct any travel expenses. (unlike in CH)
I would be a f/t permanent employee in CH.
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  #22  
Old 12.01.2012, 10:25
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Re: UK to CH - Potential Job Offer but return to UK at weekends

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So I take it that every purchase receipt no matter how insignificant it maybe, transportation, payslips & tax returns should be retained (as is the case with my current self employed freelance status) in order to ascertain my position in regards to UK taxation? What about the DTA between CH & UK?

Frickin bstards It could well be that I say frigg it and up sticks in all entirety. . I'm peeved by the whole complexity of the HMRC directives.

IMHO you would be better off relocating the family. Although you would be able to deduct quite a lot in Switzerland, HMRC would promptly lean over and take the balance of 66% which they think is due to pay for politicians to fly around or provide sinecures to those who are inable to find a proper job.

You would also fall into the trap of being ordinarily resident I suspect (not practiced accountancy for a long time, but this is what my accountant said) unless you move kith and kin out, sell or rent your primary home and declare that you have no idea of when or if you are likely to return. The examples cited for where they have bankrupted individuals in your situation are sadly common.

HMRC are evil and very hungry just now, make sure your are fully aware of the consequences of your decisions
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  #23  
Old 12.01.2012, 10:31
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Re: UK to CH - Potential Job Offer but return to UK at weekends

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I think that's an oversimplification. The visits are a factor in being declared resident/ordinarily resident in the UK, but intention to return, UK homes and location of spouse/partner are taken into account too.
Having researched this issue in some detail, I would comment that having full time employment outside the UK is the critical issue here. Google "Gaines-Cooper" case for more detail.
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  #24  
Old 12.01.2012, 10:32
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Re: UK to CH - Potential Job Offer but return to UK at weekends

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I would be a f/t permanent employee in CH.
The Revenue will not accept a self employed status then, so basically zero deductions.
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Old 12.01.2012, 10:44
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Re: UK to CH - Potential Job Offer but return to UK at weekends

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Having researched this issue in some detail, I would comment that having full time employment outside the UK is the critical issue here. Google "Gaines-Cooper" case for more detail.
See the link
http://www.ion.icaew.com/TaxFaculty/22023

This is an important point as HMRC accepts that an individual can break UK residence if they leave the UK under a full-time overseas contract which spans a complete tax year. HMRC6 states that it is not necessary to sever links with the UK in a more thorough fashion as long as the individual does not return to the UK for an average of 91 days or more per tax year or more than 183 days in any one tax year.

You can become non-UK resident if you make a break with the UK through working full time abroad.

‘Full time work abroad’ means a genuine, full time, foreign employment. This could be either a contract with a foreign employer or a formal secondment to a non-UK position by a UK employer.

If you claim that you have left the UK to work full time abroad we will expect you to be able to demonstrate that you are working equivalent hours to full time foreign employees, at the same level in the same line of business, in the country concerned. It is expected that this will normally be a minimum of 35 hours a week.
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Old 12.01.2012, 11:09
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Re: UK to CH - Potential Job Offer but return to UK at weekends

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See the link
http://www.ion.icaew.com/TaxFaculty/22023

This is an important point as HMRC accepts that an individual can break UK residence if they leave the UK under a full-time overseas contract which spans a complete tax year. HMRC6 states that it is not necessary to sever links with the UK in a more thorough fashion as long as the individual does not return to the UK for an average of 91 days or more per tax year or more than 183 days in any one tax year.

You can become non-UK resident if you make a break with the UK through working full time abroad.

‘Full time work abroad’ means a genuine, full time, foreign employment. This could be either a contract with a foreign employer or a formal secondment to a non-UK position by a UK employer.

If you claim that you have left the UK to work full time abroad we will expect you to be able to demonstrate that you are working equivalent hours to full time foreign employees, at the same level in the same line of business, in the country concerned. It is expected that this will normally be a minimum of 35 hours a week.

The HM revenue may or may not accept, only a court can provide a final rulling..........

By 'leaving' you must leave & break ties with your previous life, the OP is not doing this.
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  #27  
Old 12.01.2012, 11:45
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Re: UK to CH - Potential Job Offer but return to UK at weekends

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The HM revenue may or may not accept, only a court can provide a final rulling..........

By 'leaving' you must leave & break ties with your previous life, the OP is not doing this.
Well in this situation, I personally do not have a formal tenancy agreement on my rental (it's my in-laws home and they live in Cyprus), there is no formal court order for access or maintenance for my daughter (despite all of the huff & puff of my ex, we acheieved an amicable agreement between ourselves) and me and my partner are not married nor have any intention of marrying.

So does any of the above constitute formal ties? Would only me personally relocating loc, stock and barrel suffice in this situation with my UK visits purely out of personal preference (admittedly yes it is family orientated) and having no business connection? I dare say that the HMRC would still shaft me.
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  #28  
Old 12.01.2012, 14:04
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Re: UK to CH - Potential Job Offer but return to UK at weekends

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The HM revenue may or may not accept, only a court can provide a final rulling..........

By 'leaving' you must leave & break ties with your previous life, the OP is not doing this.
I can't agree. HMRC6 is clear on this, and the legal precedent is fairly well defined. If you have a full time position overseas you do not need break your ties with the UK to become non-resident for tax purposes, provided you satisfy the 91/183 day rule.

FYI, the new rules currently under consultation will make this issue more transparent. (At last)
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  #29  
Old 12.01.2012, 14:11
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Re: UK to CH - Potential Job Offer but return to UK at weekends

Here's the consultation document, which hopefully clarify matters.

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/cons..._residence.pdf
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Old 12.01.2012, 14:24
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Re: UK to CH - Potential Job Offer but return to UK at weekends

Decide which country you want to be taxed in, then adjust your lifestyle to accomodate. Make sure that whatever you do, you're firmly in one camp - don't skirt the edges, exploit grey areas or otherwise muddy the waters.

With self-assessment (UK), you'll only have problems if you're investigated, and you got it wrong. If you got it wrong unreasonably, then you'll face penalties and interest. if you got it wrong, but you show reasonable care, then probably just interest. Keeping receipts and other evidence is essential to "reasonable care".

There are no easy answers. Unless you're earning millions, and can afford a international tax lawyer, the system is simply not set up for people living and working in more than one country.
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  #31  
Old 12.01.2012, 14:35
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Re: UK to CH - Potential Job Offer but return to UK at weekends

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IMHO you would be better off relocating the family. Although you would be able to deduct quite a lot in Switzerland, HMRC would promptly lean over and take the balance of 66% which they think is due to pay for politicians to fly around or provide sinecures to those who are inable to find a proper job.

You would also fall into the trap of being ordinarily resident I suspect (not practiced accountancy for a long time, but this is what my accountant said) unless you move kith and kin out, sell or rent your primary home and declare that you have no idea of when or if you are likely to return. The examples cited for where they have bankrupted individuals in your situation are sadly common.

HMRC are evil and very hungry just now, make sure your are fully aware of the consequences of your decisions
Agree "you would be better off relocating the family. "

With your quoted income & living here I would expect you to have net CHF 10K per month after paying Swiss tax, NHI equivalent, Company pension & compulsory health insurance - of course everybodies situation is different & so the net amount varies.
That would be a comfortable amount to live on; rent apartment, lease a mid-range car, eat out several times a week....
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  #32  
Old 12.01.2012, 15:03
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Re: UK to CH - Potential Job Offer but return to UK at weekends

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Here's the consultation document, which hopefully clarify matters.

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/cons..._residence.pdf
Reading through the consulation document gives up the following

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Part A: conclusive non-residence

3.15 In some circumstances an individual should have certainty that they are not tax resident in the UK without having to take account of the connections they have with the UK. This is particularly the case when they are present in the UK for only a small number of days in a tax year.

3.16 In addition, as under the current rules, the Government believes a UK resident individual who leaves the UK to work abroad full-time should be non-resident for the duration of this work irrespective of the connections with the UK they leave behind, subject to certain conditions. This provision is important to employers and business as it significantly reduces administration relating to employees being sent abroad.

3.17 Therefore, Part A of the test will conclusively determine that an individual is not resident in the UK for a tax year if they fall under any of the following conditions, namely they:

• were not resident in the UK in all of the previous three tax years and they are present in the UK for fewer than 45 days in the current tax year; or
• were resident in the UK in one or more of the previous three tax years and they are present in the UK for fewer than 10 days in the current tax year; or
• leave the UK to carry out full-time work abroad, provided they are present in the UK for fewer than 90 days in the tax year and no more than 20 days are spent working in the UK in the tax year.

3.18 Definitions of “full-time work abroad” and “working day” can be found in Chapter 4.

3.19 An individual who does not fall within Part A would not necessarily be UK resident. They would instead need to consider Part B or Part C of the test.
So if the consultation was to be made law or form basis of future taxation law,from reading this document one can deduce that the section 3.16 does clarify the position here.

My interpretation of this is that if the permanent position is Lausanne does come off, in my case rather than it be every weekend (Friday & Saturday night) spent back in the UK it would then be a case of changing this to spending one weekend in three back in CH or other means of juggling about my time between CH & UK.

Why is tax so taxing?
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  #33  
Old 12.01.2012, 15:45
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Re: UK to CH - Potential Job Offer but return to UK at weekends

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Reading through the consulation document gives up the following



So if the consultation was to be made law or form basis of future taxation law,from reading this document one can deduce that the section 3.16 does clarify the position here.

My interpretation of this is that if the permanent position is Lausanne does come off, in my case rather than it be every weekend (Friday & Saturday night) spent back in the UK it would then be a case of changing this to spending one weekend in three back in CH or other means of juggling about my time between CH & UK.

Why is tax so taxing?
Provided you are in the UK less than 90 days, you will be NR under these rules. This equates to every other weekend. However, please consider your vacations and public holidays -will you return to the UK?
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  #34  
Old 12.01.2012, 17:03
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Re: UK to CH - Potential Job Offer but return to UK at weekends

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Provided you are in the UK less than 90 days, you will be NR under these rules. This equates to every other weekend. However, please consider your vacations and public holidays -will you return to the UK?
Don't really know about that one at this stage.

Early days yet and all things are being considered.

Ideally would be better for my partner & daughter to come out to me, I suppose? Or if we were to stagger it so that some are spent in CH and some spent in UK?
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  #35  
Old 12.01.2012, 17:27
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Re: UK to CH - Potential Job Offer but return to UK at weekends

I'm not familiary with UK tax laws but the intent of the UK current situation and the suggested changes is pretty clear to me and the same as one would expect to apply for most countries (apart from US of course).

I.e. if you have a full-time employment in one country, with a local contract, then logically, that is where your tax residence should be. The 90 resp. 183 days is, I would presume, to be used in cases someone tries to find loop-holes and abuse this general intent to their advantage. I very much doubt that they would start investigate someone on how many actual days someone with a proper, local contract with a local company, has actually been in the country.

Therefore, I would say that if you have a local, full-time contract in Switzerland, then that is were your tax residence should be. Personally I wouldn't worry too much about if I spend 89 days or 91 days in the UK. There is no way they can check it 100% (be smart on which credit card you use where though; better safe than sorry) and as I said above, the rules about 90 days, I believe are for clear-cut abuse cases. Which you are definitelly not. On the contrary - you fulfil the intent of the law.

I'm no expert at this at all though, so please take my comments for what it is.
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Old 12.01.2012, 21:42
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Re: UK to CH - Potential Job Offer but return to UK at weekends

I think Tilia is right. You're unlikely to get investigated... however HMRC have a record of going for the letter of the law, rather than the spirit, or even the intent of parliament, when it means they can collect more tax (Arctic Computing S660a). Fairness only comes into it if they think you're not paying enough. (IR35).
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Old 12.01.2012, 22:48
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Re: UK to CH - Potential Job Offer but return to UK at weekends

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I can't agree. HMRC6 is clear on this, and the legal precedent is fairly well defined. If you have a full time position overseas you do not need break your ties with the UK to become non-resident for tax purposes, provided you satisfy the 91/183 day rule.

FYI, the new rules currently under consultation will make this issue more transparent. (At last)
I am not asking for you to agree, only a court can decide.

Which of the 100's of legal precedents are you talking about, HMRC6 is not giving you legal advice, it's just guidance which can be over ruled in court. Read up on Robert Gains-Cooper if in doubt.
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Old 12.01.2012, 22:52
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Re: UK to CH - Potential Job Offer but return to UK at weekends

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I'm not familiary with UK tax laws but the intent of the UK current situation and the suggested changes is pretty clear to me and the same as one would expect to apply for most countries (apart from US of course).

I.e. if you have a full-time employment in one country, with a local contract, then logically, that is where your tax residence should be. The 90 resp. 183 days is, I would presume, to be used in cases someone tries to find loop-holes and abuse this general intent to their advantage. I very much doubt that they would start investigate someone on how many actual days someone with a proper, local contract with a local company, has actually been in the country.

Therefore, I would say that if you have a local, full-time contract in Switzerland, then that is were your tax residence should be. Personally I wouldn't worry too much about if I spend 89 days or 91 days in the UK. There is no way they can check it 100% (be smart on which credit card you use where though; better safe than sorry) and as I said above, the rules about 90 days, I believe are for clear-cut abuse cases. Which you are definitelly not. On the contrary - you fulfil the intent of the law.

I'm no expert at this at all though, so please take my comments for what it is.
1) Logic does not come into this.

2) Sounds good however as the UK is not in Schengen your movements into the UK are monitored, with all the closed circuit TV you can be pretty much tracked wherever you go.

3) returning regularly does not fulfil the intent of the law.
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  #39  
Old 12.01.2012, 23:03
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Re: UK to CH - Potential Job Offer but return to UK at weekends

When I came here, I filled in P85 and told them I wasn't coming back.
They gave me split year treatment for that year, but I still have to do a self assessment tax return every year because I keep a couple of bank accounts open in the UK.
On the tax return I state "all world wide income and wealth is declared and taxed in Switzerland as per the DTA and Swiss law" and give them my tax number. I don't give HRMC any figures at all.

That said, I may spend only one long weekend a year in the UK.
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Old 12.01.2012, 23:08
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Re: UK to CH - Potential Job Offer but return to UK at weekends

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That said, I may spend only one long weekend a year in the UK.
Which indicates you have left the UK permanantly, broken ties & changed the habits of your lifestyle. This is what is required to guarantee no comeback under the current system.
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