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Old 19.03.2012, 08:29
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Re: B Permit renewal declined - what now?

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I am a Swiss citizen and I have been an expat. I always knew that one day I would be coming back home. Sorry if you feel I am glib and insensitive, but in general expats always have at the back their mind the knowledge that someday they may have to go back home.

As for me hoping that the OP had a good time here. Why not? I have truly fond memories of my stay overseas and sure, sometimes I miss it, but well here I am...
I agree ( no, I am not Swiss and No I do not have peranent residency.) One reason I would never buy a house here, or in any of the other countries I have worked in, is because of the fact of not having a peranent right to stay in this/whichever country.

I totally agree with Snoopy - we come on a contract to do a job. If that job finishes, the expectation is that we will leave the country. It may be a bit of a gamble for some, but that IS the way it is.

The OP actually seems quite accepting of this fact and is asking how to go about all the severences, not moaning about the fact that it may have to happen.

Is there life after Switzerland? Definitely.
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  #22  
Old 19.03.2012, 09:05
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Re: B Permit renewal declined - what now?

@everyone_else: sorry if I am off topic.

@OP: pgood luck mate. Been there done that, several times. There is life outside CH. Choose wisely.

@snoopy: Thank you for sharing the opinion. I'd like to offer a different opinion, if I may.

People are also not economic commodities - to be disposed of when no longer required. If a person has been around for a significant lenght of time, irrespective of the passport, who came at the invitation of a "member" of that society, and has contributed positively to that society, then that society then bears a responsibility to support and nurture that person to develop and contribute further. That person took great pains to adjust and integrate. After a lengthy stay (18 mo+ e.g.) to deny the person right to stay is not right, in my opinion - unless that person becomes a "significant liability" (e.g. crime, no-motivation/leech, etc, etc).

My observation from your post is that you probably have not lived with the luxuary "3rd country" passport. For thost of us that have it, we have to be better than what is locally available to get the invite into the country. That takes great deal of effort, determination and sacrifice. To be invited in and later treated as a dispoable economic commodity also clearly makes a statement from the inviting country.

I know a german (no offence intended, please), who now has a 1+year old boy, is a pot head, and so is her male friend, and they live in my village. She has not worked a day in her life in the past year and is benefiting for state help. She lives in the CH because of various economic benefits she receives better than in DE.

And yes, all the support the OP is getting in this forum, it is because others on this list recognize the effort.

Why should this woman get the social benefits with limited contribution to the society, when a non-eu contributing member of society (or is wiling to contribute if supported), be asked to leave, after having contributed for 3.5+ years?

ps. FWIW, I hold multiple passports, including CH, but grew up on the wrong side of the atlantic.
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  #23  
Old 19.03.2012, 11:45
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Re: B Permit renewal declined - what now?

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People are also not economic commodities...
Nomad, I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment of your post, and in a perfect world that's how it should be.

Those of us who have contributed much to Switzerland - by creating hundreds of jobs for the Swiss, by keeping key Swiss businesses based here rather than offshore, by doing the jobs that the Swis cannot do, by paying far more in taxes than the majority of Swiss citizens, by supporting Swiss cultural institutions, Swiss charities, Swiss environmental concerns, Swiss communities, should be able to imagine a future in the country we have given so much to.

Unfortunately, it is not a perfect world. The cold hard truth is that we non-EU folk are indeed nothing more than economic commodities. There is no recipricosity - our past contributions are forgotten the minute we cease to fill the Swiss coffers to the extent that we had done in the past.

The Zeitgeist has changed. The Swiss public believe that there are too many foreigners here - whether that is right or wrong, sensible or not, is neither here nor there. (In order to come here we non-EU folks have already had to prove that we bring a huge economic advantage to the country - but that little fact is often lost in the rhetoric.) No, the problem (if one actually exists) is more due to EU migrants who come without jobs - but Switzerland doesn't wish to tackle that issue, as the majority of the Swiss wish to reap the benefits of being able to move freely themselves.

So the only politically acceptable option is to restrict non-EU, non-family immigrants to the active economic sphere. We who were asked to come here based on economic activity remain here on a very tenuous thread - and would be wise to remember this. No, it's not fair - but it is the reality we have to live in.

It's time to get rid of the polite fiction that a non-EU person can/should integrate into Switzerland. We can't - because our hosts view us only as economic commodities. We have no future here.

We non-EU need to approach a stint in Switzerland with eyes wide open, with a clear understanding of the reality of what we are signing up for.

IMO, a non-EU person should only come to Switzerland if whatever brings him/her here provides a significant uptick - either economic or personal - to compensate for this inherent insecurity. A non-Eu person takes on significant risk in coming here - if you do so at the behest of your employer, make sure that you negotiate an outstanding expat package, including relocation terms.

And don't loose your heart to Switzerland - because trying to put down roots in the community, planning a future here will only lead to heartbreak.


Sorry for continuing off topic - and again to the OP - I wish you all the best.
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  #24  
Old 19.03.2012, 11:55
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Re: B Permit renewal declined - what now?

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It's time to get rid of the polite fiction that a non-EU person can/should integrate into Switzerland. We can't - because our hosts view us only as economic commodities. We have no future here.
Ain't that a fact!
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  #25  
Old 19.03.2012, 12:35
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Re: B Permit renewal declined - what now?

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And don't loose your heart to Switzerland - because trying to put down roots in the community, planning a future here will only lead to heartbreak.
And isn't this the tricky part. We've been here nearly five years now, our daughter is in the first class at the local school, I have a thriving business, my husband has a permanent position and we really appreciate the opportunity to live here.

But our being here relies totally on my husband's job. If that goes, we go. If he can't work, we go. If he wants to change jobs it's a very long shot at the moment that he would find something else here, so we go. And what a burden that is for someone anyway, to have their family's presence in the country wholly dependent on them keeping the same job forever more.

The flipside is, of course, that we are very lucky that if we did have to leave we could return to Australia, where we would stand a fair chance of getting good jobs, and would at least have the support of family and friends. There are so many here who, depending on their home country, don't have as strong a fallback plan, and I imagine that for them the tenuousness of their existence here gives them even more grief.

But for us it's a choice we've made and are very happy that we did make. What an experience, to be able to come and live in Switzerland.
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  #26  
Old 19.03.2012, 13:48
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Re: B Permit renewal declined - what now?

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People are also not economic commodities - to be disposed of when no longer required.
Look I understand what you are saying. Immigration policies can be heartless. As tildaoz above said, you move to a country with children, etc and who knows what will be? These are the (known) risks of the game. There are no guarantees. How many expats (and by no means all in Switzerland) have been transferred back home at the drop of a hat causing turmoil for families and children's educations. And that is not a question of immigration policy but often corporate policy/strategy or whatever you want to call it.

Government's cannot afford to get personal. People who work are resources (why else would personnel departments now be called "Human Resources"?). There is a market and that market is all about supply and demand. The supply and demand on the labour market is often what triggers government immigration policies, whichever country you may be talking about, not just Switzerland. Expats know that. They may not like it, but they know it.
I know people who have had the opportunity to go overseas and who have turned it down for precisely that reason.

The fact is, if you don't like the rules, you don't play the game....
As the Meerkat would say: "Simples"
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  #27  
Old 19.03.2012, 14:18
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Re: B Permit renewal declined - what now?

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And what a burden that is for someone anyway, to have their family's presence in the country wholly dependent on them keeping the same job forever more.
Yes for people with families being on a work permit anywhere (not just CH) is a bit too much, even if you have a fallback plan. Can't make long term plans (>1 year) which often a family wants to make (housing, school etc.). Unless one is on an expat contract, in which case it is worth it, even short term.
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  #28  
Old 19.03.2012, 14:20
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Re: B Permit renewal declined - what now?

I realise this doesn't help poor RudiJD....

I'm an Aussie i.e. 3rd world, economic commodity. Been here (this time around) since March 2006. Here is the only advice I can offer to anyone who's non-EU/EFTA (may or may not count USA/CAN citizens in this);

If your on a working L-Permit, do whatever you can with your employer to get yourself a B as soon as possible.

If you're on one of those limited-time Expat B permits, (Expat contract from overseas employer, where everything is tax-deductible, etc) and you want to stay longer here, get on a local contract ASAP. The number of years here on the Expat B-permit don't count.

If you've had 5 years on a B-permit (non-Expat)...get yourself a B1 certificate in the regional language, get your papers in order and apply for an early C-Permit. I did, and I got it after 5 years on a B, with a local contract.

(as a USA/CAN citizen, your would get your C automatically after 5 years, the rest of us have to earn it!)

The only way to break yourself out of the 3rd world status is a C-Permit.
It's a lot of hard work, and time invested, but you will feel much better as a result.

There are a lot of requirements to actually getting an early C permit, I'm not going into them here.

My point is, if you're reading this now, as a non-EU/EFTA/USA/CAN, and you think you want to stay here in CH five years or longer, you must set your sights on obtaining an early C-Permit. Get your stuff in order now, and make it a goal.

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There are no guarantees. How many expats (and by no means all in Switzerland) have been transferred back home at the drop of a hat causing turmoil for families and children's educations.
If you are here on an Expat contract, with Expat status, yes that is always the risk. BUT, the tax breaks that you get with that status are the reward to that risk. If you take up a local contract, with no special status, no special treatment, learn the language, pay your bills, keep your nose clean, then after 5 years, you've earned your C.

Can't have your cake & eat it too...
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  #29  
Old 19.03.2012, 14:31
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Re: B Permit renewal declined - what now?

Snoopy,
If I gamed the system here, and milked all the unemployment benefit and what's not, would you still call it "fair"?
This is just game with some rules, right? Why should I bother then?
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  #30  
Old 19.03.2012, 14:41
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Re: B Permit renewal declined - what now?

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If you are here on an Expat contract, with Expat status, yes that is always the risk. BUT, the tax breaks that you get with that status are the reward to that risk. Can't have your cake & eat it too...
Indeed this status is worth it with the breaks and benefits. Its the 'creme de la creme'. A local contract is'nt bad but for people with family, too risky if the job is gone as in CH it is very easy to get rid of people. Of course this all is for non EU nationals.
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  #31  
Old 19.03.2012, 15:41
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Re: B Permit renewal declined - what now?

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...
No, the problem (if one actually exists) is more due to EU migrants who come without jobs ...
...
There aren't many of unemployed non-EUs, however, and if they are and never had worked in CH, they won't get a frank out of public unemployment help.


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...
The cold hard truth is that we non-EU folk are indeed nothing more than economic commodities. There is no recipricosity - our past contributions are forgotten the minute we cease to fill the Swiss coffers to the extent that we had done in the past.

The Zeitgeist has changed. The Swiss public believe that there are too many foreigners here - whether that is right or wrong, sensible or not, is neither here nor there. (In order to come here we non-EU folks have already had to prove that we bring a huge economic advantage to the country - but that little fact is often lost in the rhetoric.)
...
One of the main differences between immigrants and "old" Swiss is that already the Swiss' ancestors did struggle for building up the country (OK, I know it was also due to WW I + II outcome and tons of luck), the immigrants' didn't.

A difference between non-EU and EU immigrants is that the EUs' institutional status is guaranteed by agreements between CH and the EU or between CH and some of the EU's members individually. This is a big difference to a situation regarding other countries in the world.

I don't want to say that on a personal level it's fair in all aspects,

as one of the huge problems is generated by exactly that:
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...
We who were asked to come here based on economic activity remain here on a very tenuous thread - and would be wise to remember this. No, it's not fair - but it is the reality we have to live in.
...
This in fact is cruel, and what is maybe even worse, it brings this result:
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@My observation from your post is that you probably have not lived with the luxuary "3rd country" passport. For thost of us that have it, we have to be better than what is locally available to get the invite into the country.
...
"Having to be better" than others can easily been mistaken by locals or privileged immigrants as an insult, as it implies the racist idea that a local would think that only a foreign highflyer could be considered as a valid human being.

So imho this kind of policy drives a stake through communication, integration and social acceptance.


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...
Look I understand what you are saying. Immigration policies can be heartless.
...
It's not only a question of being severe, heartless or generous.

Immigration policies heavily lack in communication, that's the point. Is it really too much required that in a rich country as CH authorities do not take 4 months to examinate the case and could maybe let know the person about deadlines, rights and duties, risks and burocratic stuff?

Imo this is something to begin with, upgrading migration offices and departments into value added, proactive institutions.
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  #32  
Old 19.03.2012, 20:43
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Re: B Permit renewal declined - what now?

Poor Rudi has probably joined another forum in search of advice and help.

I think if you actually read the his post then you will see that what is asked for is help and advice. Not opinions. He has probably heard them all before - I know I have.

Whilst there are some great helpful replies, the post seems to be hijacked by those offering an opinion on the OP's situation. Is he right to want to stay in a country that he has come to like? He already knows of his fragile immigration status. He also knows that but for a really good break or a lotto winfall he is going to have to leave soon.

So, in my opinion, if you want to freely offer your opinions then start another thread. Perhaps you can call it "Should foreigners be aggrieved when their permit is not renewed"
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  #33  
Old 19.03.2012, 21:33
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Re: B Permit renewal declined - what now?

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So, in my opinion, if you want to freely offer your opinions then start another thread. Perhaps you can call it "Should foreigners be aggrieved when their permit is not renewed"
In my opinion that means your 3 post offering your opinion on the opinions given by people who have an opinion should be in that thread, as apart from that you've contributed nothing in the form of advice

I think the OP realises his wicket is sticky, and the best tip would be for him to contact the lease folks, and all the other people he has contracts with directly, then they will tell him exactly what he needs to do.

Good luck with whatever the future holds for you Rudi... wherever that may be.

Last edited by Papa Goose; 19.03.2012 at 22:24.
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  #34  
Old 19.03.2012, 22:01
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Re: B Permit renewal declined - what now?

So here my advice again:

1. Try to enroll in the university, in any language school, in whatever; they will give you B-Student for it. That means that you can legally work only 15 hours a week, but still gives you time to reflect what and how to do what you want to do.

2. Look for a job also in France. It's easier to take car and other stuff from Lausanne to France then from CH to ZA.

3. Look for a Swiss girlfriend to marry.

4. Contact an immigration lawyer.

...
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Old 19.03.2012, 22:28
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Re: B Permit renewal declined - what now?

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In my opinion that means your 3 post offering your opinion on the opinions given by people who have an opinion should be in that thread, as apart from that you've contributed nothing in the form of advice
I totally agree with you on this. It is the last I am going to say on this thread,
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  #36  
Old 26.03.2012, 12:46
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Re: B Permit renewal declined - what now?

@ rest_of_ya'll: sorry if I am being offensive. I don't stay on this list on a regular basis much.

@mods: please tell me if I need to move this to a PM or a pct discussion.....

@Bucentaure, @snoopy: Yes, I hear you. My point was - if there is someone locally who can fill the gap, why would there be a need for an outsider to come and fill the gap? And this outsider stays for 3+ years, puts in the effort to fill in the gap, contribute to local society, and then told to get lost, subsequently?

the reason the person was invited to CH and allowed to stay this long was because there was a reason?

Should legislative authorities be an economically driven corporation, or do to they have a bigger responsiblity to police/supervise the economically driven corporations within that society ?
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