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Old 14.12.2007, 20:29
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Vinta? I am soooooo upset!

Hi there,

So ... here goes, I just need to unload my frutration somewhere

For those not familiar with what Vinta is. In German it is called
"Vorzeitige Erteilung einer Niederlassungsbewilligung bei erfolgreicher Integration". Its a law that offers non-EU persons after 5 years of uninterrupted residency (holding a B Permit) in CH to apply for a C permit. You don't need to be married to any Swiss citizen or anything like it, ony five years B permit. The only requirements are:

- Clean criminal record
- Clean fanacial record (no debts, etc)
- Proof that you are financially independant (in other words, got a job and don't need social help)
- Proof of basic German (all family members)
- All family memebers must have 5 years of uninterrupted (legal) permancy in CH.

Note that you have the right to apply, but you are not entittled to it, in other words, you are lucky and the person who is processing your application is perhaps in a good mood

You can read more about it here: Aussies can get permit C after 5 years

or here
http://www.migration.lu.ch/vorzeitig...ntegration.pdf

If you haven't heard about it; no wonder, there is almost no information about it, and even the people at the Gemeinde have little or no knowledge about it. You can speculate if this is on purpose or not ....

Anyhow this is the story.

We tried to apply for this Vinta thing in our Gemeinde, answer: "Never heard of such thing, you need to wait 10 years". Fair enough, since we are all humans and make mistakes, and not been native German speakers, we though we misunderstood the information, so we called the Immigration Office in Bern, and got confirmation that such law does exist and yes, we are on our right to apply for it. Went back to the Gemeinde, this time with a printout of the law we found in Internet, talked to 3 different persons at the Gemeinde ... "No, such thing doesn't exist" was their answer again (even though she was reading the hardcopy I handed her). When such thing happens, it makes you wonder if they really want to be helpful. We called again the Immigration Office in Bern, explained the situation, and even though they couldn't believe what we said, they suggested to go to the Fremdspolizei and talk to someone there. Again, the person there, somehow shocked, could not understand the situation, however he was kind enough to give us an official signed/stamped paper instructing the Gemeinde to give us the forms. Off we went again to the Gemeinde, handed in the document: "certainly! here are the forms" very efficiently and quickly .... This was on January/2007 this year!

March same year my wife found a job (after almost 6 years of search), as a non-EU, the company needs to do the paperwork, which they (still after 9 months) are willing to do, however it is not possible because our B-Permits expired already and because of this Vinta process. The HR person called several times, and got no answer either: "you need to be patient", of course for the company "Patience" was not the problem, but having someone employed with no legal work permit. After several calls she managed a document from the Kanton stating that my wife is allowed to work even though she has no working permit ... sure.

Impressively, two weeks BEFORE my wife received her first salary, we received notice from the Gemeinde indicating our new tax bracket ...

So no worries then, we let time pass, 4-5-6 months and then started wondering why is it taking so long? We called a couple of times: "still processing", the HR person also called ... same answer. Now, by November I started to get a little nervous, in March/2007 (thinking that it could not take that long) we booked plane tickets, hotels, etc for having Christmas in Spain. So I called again, explained my concern, indicating that we are leaving CH for Holidays and we didn't want to have problems upon our return because of not having a valid residency permit. The person there, looked our case in the computer and the only thing she could say is that it is "still in process" and not to worry as for sure we will receive answer before December: "call again next week if dont receive a response via Post". This same conversation went on and on for about 6 weeks.

Today, one week before leaving to spain, I actually got a letter ... now for the for the grand "finale":

We need to provide before Monday 8.Jan.2008 (we leave to Spain on the 22.12.2007 and return on Friday 6.Jan.2008):

- Proof/Certificate that my wife is properly integrated
- Proof/Certificate that we are economically independant (no social help)
- Proof/Certificate that during all our stay in Switzerland I have always been employed.

Since both my wife and I work 100% and with a 2 year old son, we can, with some stress manage the requested documents ... in just 5 days

The most irritating part is the footnote that says:

"If you are unable to deliver these documents before the 8.Jan.2008 we will assume that you are no longer interested on taking this processing any further and therefore reject your application."

This is so humiliating! And the worst part is, that horrid feeling that I have, of not complaining or saying anything about it on the risk of being rejected. Only collect the requested documents and send them. BAH!

The more I think of it, I am even starting to consider that all the delays were on purpose

Sorry for the long post.

Now ... where did I put that bottle of scotch?

Last edited by Lob; 14.02.2008 at 21:14. Reason: remove " codes which resulted when pasted
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Old 14.12.2007, 20:57
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Re: Vinta? I am soooooo upset!

Your frustration and exasperation is tangible and rightly so. I'm no expert but what if you took said form to the office on Monday morning and get an extension and official stamp on the period of time to provide proof of interest.

I hope someone here will come up with a better Idea but due to the time of year who knows how many people are busy or partying from the English Forum. If this has been going on for so long I hope that the Gemeinde have the decency to grant you this courtesy. However I cant see how they can refuse to acknowledge your position.

Good Luck and have a wonderful Christmas in Spain.
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Old 14.12.2007, 21:16
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Re: Vinta? I am soooooo upset!

I wish I could offer some advice or words of wisdome but, alas, all I have is "You are a saint" your patience should be documented and taught in classrooms as a lesson on "how to be patient"
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Old 14.12.2007, 21:49
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Re: Vinta? I am soooooo upset!

Sounds like a real pickle.

Many people on this forum will tell you that the wheels may turn slowly in the Swiss system, but they do turn... I guess you may disagree?

I'm very disappointed that the local community office (gemeinde) knew nothing of this procedure. After all, what are those people paid to do? Be ignorant of their own procedures?

It's really difficult to tell whether these people were just incompetent, or whether they were deliberately putting stones in your way for their own personal reasons (i.e. their own prejudice). Stories of gemeinde staff being ignorant about their own procedures are quite common, but the fact that you returned with the legislation and handed it over and still got the same treatment is very odd indeed!

I don't think the advice Oldhand gave about asking for an extension is wrong, but I think in your situation I wouldn't do this. Why? It gives them just one more excuse to delay the process, or somehow "forget" that you were granted an extension.

Therefore, if you have the documents, even if it is inconvenient, submit them as early as you can. Best to play the game exactly as they want it.
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Old 14.12.2007, 22:15
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Re: Vinta? I am soooooo upset!

Hi Kayser Soze,

It seems to me that most Goverment Agencies/Embassies etc that are responsible for handing out Visa's and permits etc all have the same attidude.

They don't care about the stress that you are going through!!!!!!!!!

My wife needed a shengen, even though she had a UK work permit.
we found the french Embassy in London very good, but the Italian Embassy.

We had to cancel a 2 week Holiday because they took so long, even after giving them 6 weeks notice and promising a 3 week turnaround.
On the 3rd week they then told me it was a minimum of 3 weeks.
As we got closer to the date of departure I called them again and again and with the same response as you received (it's being processed).

In the end and after 51/2 weeks we gave up and cancelled the Holiday and demanded the passport back!

They don't care, most are office robots who only think about what they will eat for dinner that night or what ever!

I guess you might expect that from Italy (sorry Italians), but not Switzerland.

Sorry can't offer any advice.

Good luck hope it all turns out well for you.
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Old 14.12.2007, 23:14
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Re: Vinta? I am soooooo upset!

Hey Kayser Soze,

I totally understand your situation, i had to cancel a flight once cause my passport was late as well. I hope you can manage it and not waste the holidays.

Best of luck
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Old 14.12.2007, 23:43
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Re: Vinta? I am soooooo upset!

I thought about doing some quotes but your post is far too long. Anyway here some information.

1. What you are applying for is NOT a VIntA! It is the vorzeitige Erteilung einer Niederlassungs-bewilligung bei erfolgreicher Integration. VIntA is the Verordnung über die Integration von Ausländerinnen und Ausländer

2. This is a multi-step process very similar to becoming a Swiss citizen and goes through the same hoops...

3. The first responsible is the local Gemeinde, they collect the documents and should check that they are all together. The second step is the canton Migrationsamt. And finally the BFM. If each are satisfied that everything is okay they will generally call you in to complete whatever is outstanding if anything.


4. I am very surprised that they have asked you some of the questions they have - they are wrong.

With respect to working you need to demonstrate that you have not made a social security claim within the past two years not that you have worked full time over 6. These are two very different things...
Even if you have claimed over the past two years, wait for it, you can "clear your record" by repaying the money claimed

The primary integration "test" used is local language ability. Seeing as you must provide a Basic German certificate for all adult family members or a school confirmation from under-age family members why do they want this again... They also request fire service duty information and membership of Swiss clubs - not sure if you have provided that...

Economic independence is not actually stated anywhere in the law all that is is that you have employment that is of a long term nature - demonstrated by the copy of the contract of employment you needed to send with your application...

5. As of 1st Jan there is a change in ANAG which makes it more difficult to achieve what you are trying to do... As of the 1st Jan Integration plays a MUCH bigger role. I am not quite sure how the different cantons are going to play this but it is then possible to force the applicant to attend a language or integration course and pass a test. Clearly there are limits to the applicability of the language course ie a French Canadian is not going to be sent to learn French... In any case whereas the requirement was previously basic knowledge of at least one national language it will in the future be good knowledge and with the recommendation that this is tested by interview.

So where now?

Your case is rather usual, I am afraid and it is likely to take another 3 months to resolve but judging by the responses will be positive which is good news.

There is no need to worry about not having a permit. One accepted reason for not producing one is that it is with the authorities...

As far as the time limit is concerned this is standard practice to offer a 15 day limit - you can of course write to them and ask for an extension of 30 days. What they are looking for is a response not a return of all documents fully completed by the said date. There are a surprising number of people who apply for these rights and in the interim leave the country.

If you want to ask any specific questions fire away.





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Old 15.12.2007, 00:28
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Re: Vinta? I am soooooo upset!

Quote:
I thought about doing some quotes but your post is far too long.
Agreed, not the kind of stuff you would like to read on a Friday night

Quote:
With respect to working you need to demonstrate that you have not made a social security claim within the past two years not that you have worked full time over 6. These are two very different things...
In the letter it states:
Quote:
1. Nachweis, dass Sie während der gesamten Dauer ihres Aufenthaltes in der Schweiz einer Erwerbstätigskeit nachgeganden sind.
Which, if I understand correctly means the entire period.

Quote:
2. Geeigneter Nachweis, welcher Ihrer Ehefrau .... eine erfolgreiche Integration dokumentiert
Luckly my wife, in her desperation to beat boredness, did Social work (accounting) in a Brockenstube. That should do the trick.

Quote:
3. Nachweis, dass sie Familie während der gesamten Dauer ihres Aufenthalltes in der Schweiz nie von Sozialhilfe unterstüzt werden musste.
How do you Prove this? Is there a document or something similar you can request somewhere?

I will call them on Monday and see if I can get an extension, what I don't like is begging part. I would consider 11 months enough time; and not just suddenly come up with "we need this document and this other one" in a 20 day time frame during Christmas ... why not ask for those documents in advance and save us the trouble?

Oh well, I guess nothing is perfect

Thanks!
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Old 15.12.2007, 15:57
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Re: Vinta? I am soooooo upset!

That really sucks what you are experiencing. I feel quite sorry for you.

It won't help you now but I strongly advise to use a Swiss lawyer for anything that has to do with permit applications. There are plenty of independent lawyers that charge much more humane fees than the big ones. If you build up a relationship with a lawyer you will find that the are quite useful in a number of instances, e.g. when you have having any type of problems/issues with the authorities. I usually have my lawyer send all applications in his name on my behalf and my feeling is that it makes a big difference. Or I send the application but let my lawyer call on my behalf as soon as there is an issue/question.

One way of creating a relationship with a lawyer is e.g. having them do your tax declaration every year.

Personally, I have used a lawyer since I arrived here and countless are the situations where the lawyers fee was a small amount to pay for the not having to deal with all the hassle.

I know that many of you get tax advice etc as part of your package with your employer. Also in these instances do I recommend you to still have your own lawyer. Sooner than you think, your employer may actually become the one you're having problems with and then having your own lawyer available for advise is worth a lot.
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Old 15.12.2007, 17:14
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Re: Vinta? I am soooooo upset!

You're from U.S./Canada?

so that you can claim permit C after 5 years of uninterrupted residency?
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Old 15.12.2007, 17:32
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Re: Vinta? I am soooooo upset!

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You're from U.S./Canada?

so that you can claim permit C after 5 years of uninterrupted residency?
I didn't think that the language requirement applied to folks from the USA or Canada.
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Old 15.12.2007, 17:48
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Re: Vinta? I am soooooo upset!

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You're from U.S./Canada?

so that you can claim permit C after 5 years of uninterrupted residency?
Discretionary issuance of C permit can be applied for after five years by anyone regardless of nationality.
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Old 15.12.2007, 17:58
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Re: Vinta? I am soooooo upset!

What is "Vorzeitige Erteilung einer Niederlassungsbewilligung bei erfolgreicher Integration" and "Verordnung über die Integration von Ausländerinnen und Ausländer" in French?

It is my first time to hear that anyone from third national can apply for permit C after 5 years uninterrupted residency.

I thought only American or Canadian can have this privilege...
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Old 15.12.2007, 18:05
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Re: Vinta? I am soooooo upset!

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What is "Vorzeitige Erteilung einer Niederlassungsbewilligung bei erfolgreicher Integration" and "Verordnung über die Integration von Ausländerinnen und Ausländer" in French?


It is my first time to hear that anyone from third national can apply for permit C after 5 years uninterrupted residency.
Délivrance avant terme d'une autorisation d'établissement en cas d'intégration réussie. Ordonnance sur l'intégration des étrangères et étrangers.

Quote:
I thought only American or Canadian can have this privilege...
The privilege that Americans and Canadians have is that it is delivered automatically after five years; whereas it is delivered at the authorities' discretion through the process described above.
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Old 15.12.2007, 18:19
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Re: Vinta? I am soooooo upset!

Thanks to Shorrick Mk2's reply.

I am from non EU, on a permit B 4.75 years already. I will be living in Lausanne for 5 years in March, I will be eligible to apply for the permit C through "Délivrance avant terme d'une autorisation d'établissement en cas d'intégration réussie" or "Ordonnance sur l'intégration des étrangères et étrangers"?

If the answer is positive, is a very good news and I hope the response from the Swiss Office won't be negative....

Last edited by joeyying; 16.01.2008 at 12:30.
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Old 15.12.2007, 18:59
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Re: Vinta? I am soooooo upset!

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Thanks to Shorrick Mk2's reply.

I am from Hong Kong, on a permit B 4.75 years already. I will be living in Lausanne for 5 years in March, I will be eligible to apply for the permit C through "Délivrance avant terme d'une autorisation d'établissement en cas d'intégration réussie" or "Ordonnance sur l'intégration des étrangères et étrangers"?

If the answer is positive, is a very good news and I hope the response from the Swiss Office won't be negative....
Check Art. 3a and 3b here:
http://www.admin.ch/ch/f/rs/142_205/index.html
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Old 15.12.2007, 19:09
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Re: Vinta? I am soooooo upset!

Thanks to Kayser Soze!
The link is very useful...

But I have one more question,
I am an expat in CH, sponsored by my Swiss-based company. I have a friend, she is also from non EU as well, but she is a student here for studying hotel management in Montreux, she had studied in Switzerland for 4 years already. If she will study a Master degree (2 years) in Montreux, will she eligible to apply for permit C?

Last edited by joeyying; 16.01.2008 at 12:30.
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Old 15.12.2007, 19:52
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Re: Vinta? I am soooooo upset!

As far as I know, you need to be on a B permit, however I could be wrong. Perhaps Richard can confirm this?
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Old 15.12.2007, 20:15
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Re: Vinta? I am soooooo upset!

Student B permit, doesn't count as that B permit?

ops~
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Old 15.12.2007, 21:10
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Re: Vinta? I am soooooo upset!

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As far as I know, you need to be on a B permit, however I could be wrong. Perhaps Richard can confirm this?
I can confirm that that is wrong!! While you do need to be on a B permit it needs to be an annual B permit. This is effectively one that has no limit. A student B will not wash and I would also doubt that an Expat permit will either as that is restricted to 5 years. Thereafter your status will(should) change to local employee.

The whole purpose of this is to say those people who have shown that they are able to integrate fully into Swiss society should not be disadvantaged.
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