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Old 30.12.2012, 21:03
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Permit Mess (my fault)...Please help

Dear All,
Any advice will be appericiated.
My situation is that am married NON EU(with Permit B) to a NON EU (with a C permit).
Am currently in the messiest situation you could think of.

Am pregnant outside my marriage with a NON EU who holds a C Permit.
I've been married for over a year and but i back slid and found myself having an affair with my ex lover.
Am not employed either.
From what i've read so far, you lose your permit if marriage is non existent.
I have no clue what to do now....
Any suggestions?
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  #2  
Old 30.12.2012, 21:18
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Re: Permit Mess (my fault)...Please help

Before this descends into mayhem, I assume you are asking about whether you visa will be revoked if you divorce? Or are you asking about support networks, birth control options, issues of morality, the sacred state of marriage etc?

If you don't specify, you will get opinions on all the above, and more

If it is the visa, we you issued the visa on your own standing, or under Family Reunification regulations?
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Old 30.12.2012, 21:29
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Re: Permit Mess (my fault)...Please help

Hello
Thanks for reply.
My main question is in regards to my permit and how it would be affected in this situation as my Permit B is soley based on Marriage (family regroupement)
On the side of immorality, am sure a divorce will be implemented by my partner.
The father of child is Permit C, so the child will get a Permit C.
What about me?
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Old 30.12.2012, 21:30
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Re: Permit Mess (my fault)...Please help

I am so sorry you find yourself in this very unfortunate situation. Does your husband know the baby is not his? Would you stay with him if he accepted the situation? As long as you stay married to him, there is no problem with your permit. If you split, I have no idea, sorry. Bonne chance.
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Old 30.12.2012, 21:33
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Re: Permit Mess (my fault)...Please help

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Hello
Thanks for reply.
My main question is in regards to my permit and how it would be affected in this situation as my Permit B is soley based on Marriage (family regroupement)
On the side of immorality, am sure a divorce will be implemented by my partner.
The father of child is Permit C, so the child will get a Permit C.
What about me?
Thanks for clarifying.

I don't know that answer - I'd be guessing, but there are many helpful people here who do know these things.

Good luck and I hope it works out for you in 2013
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Old 30.12.2012, 21:35
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Re: Permit Mess (my fault)...Please help

Thanks.
None of the parties are aware at this point.
But even if my husband was willing to accept, The baby will obviously not be registered under his name (as father) and it would be complex as all information, regisstrations etc go the cantonal office..
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Old 30.12.2012, 21:36
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Re: Permit Mess (my fault)...Please help

It will take time to go through the separation process and divorce, and in the meantime your visa shouldn't be drastically affected.

Second question is whether the father of the child is going to support the child and pay for upkeep, and whether you are going to live together.

I recently heard that the father of the child can 'claim' paternity, but the system will assume your husband is the father, until a paternity test is concluded, which obviously can only happen after the baby is born...

I'd suggest that you ask your local doctor to organise your health care, and there should be a migrant women's advice service in your city that can perhaps help you with referral and support regarding your legal position, visa, child's situation, possible solutions...

I would also consider, very very very carefully, whether you can cope with the possibility of living in Switzerland from now until when the child reaches maturity, and how you would feel if the child's father blocked you from taking the child out of the country... then weigh that up against being a single mother and cutting the child off from contact with his biological father...

If you are less than 16 weeks pregnant, and are considering abortion, then you can also speak to your doctor about your options. You will only have a very short time to make this decision.
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Old 30.12.2012, 21:58
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Re: Permit Mess (my fault)...Please help

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Thanks.
None of the parties are aware at this point.
But even if my husband was willing to accept, The baby will obviously not be registered under his name (as father) and it would be complex as all information, regisstrations etc go the cantonal office..
If it's OK for the husband, then it's no problem. The Gemeinde does not care if it's his child in the biological sense, as long as he says it's his on the form....
Twenty-five years ago, I'd have said if you love him, just keep quite (unless the skin-color does not match...), because nobody will find out.
But nowadays, better come clear ASAP and then deal with the consequences....
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Old 30.12.2012, 22:54
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Re: Permit Mess (my fault)...Please help

Thanks all for your kind replies and suggestions.
I would like to assume here the worst case scenario...which would be, that husbands wants a divorce, (which would impact on my permit of course)
I give birth, baby gets a Permit C out of biological father having one..and then in the end am left paperless.
It is obviously not a plan to get married to the father.
So (assuming), where would that leave me in terms of having a residency permit to remain in Switzerland? Based on baby and father having Permit C?
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Old 30.12.2012, 23:23
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Re: Permit Mess (my fault)...Please help

Interesting case. If the father was Swiss the case would be clear (and there is a court decision in that sense). The court said that it was important that the child grew up in its national environment being Swiss itself and that it would be unthinkable to separate the mother from the baby.

http://www.humanrights.ch/de/Schweiz...5-content.html

In your case though, the father is not Swiss, nor is the child to be. As you say that it is probable that your husband will divorce you your reason to stay here is no longer given. You also say that you have no intention of marrying the father, so you are not a "family unit" either, which would be required for the regroupement familial. Also, to what extent is the father willing to commit to guaranteeing your existence here with his child. Talk is cheap as we all know, but will he sign the paper.

It will be interesting to see how the authorities decide, but probably not very black and white and may require the use of an immigration lawyer.

Added: Looking into it a bit deeper I came up with this:

http://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/dam/...nnachzug-f.pdf

6.1.2 Enfant né hors mariage
A sa naissance, l'enfant d'un couple non marié, qui vit avec ses deux parents, se verra octroyer la même autorisation que sa mère. Il obtiendra l'établissement en même temps qu'elle. Toutefois, en cas d’autorité parentale conjointe constatée par une décision de l’autorité tutélaire compétente, l’enfant se verra octroyer le statut du parent qui lui est les plus favorable. Ceci vaut également pour la mère ou le père qui vit seul avec l’enfant.

This means that the child gets the same permit as you. However, as yours may be revoked this may be an issue. If I understand correctly what is written above, you would need a) to live together and b) to get an official agreement of joint custody which would then ensure that your child gets the permit of the parent that would be most favourable.

Anyway, that is just amateur research. I am sure a specialised lawyer could advise you better.

Last edited by Snoopy; 30.12.2012 at 23:37. Reason: Added
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Old 31.12.2012, 00:11
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Re: Permit Mess (my fault)...Please help

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Am pregnant outside my marriage with a NON EU who holds a C Permit.
I've been married for over a year and but i back slid and found myself having an affair with my ex lover.
?
Are you sure that the ex boyfriend is the father?

Also, if the boyfriend is the father, I think Sweatpea has made a very valid point - how would you feel in the future if the father does decide to block the child from leaving the country? Do you want to stay in Switzerland as a single parent? Do you have a supportive family back home? Do you have the ability to support yourself back home? ( either with work or with social support.)

I wish you lots of luck and hope the situation can be talked through calmly with your husband., if you are SURE that the baby is not his.....
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Old 31.12.2012, 00:16
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Re: Permit Mess (my fault)...Please help

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Interesting case. If the father was Swiss the case would be clear (and there is a court decision in that sense). The court said that it was important that the child grew up in its national environment being Swiss itself and that it would be unthinkable to separate the mother from the baby.

http://www.humanrights.ch/de/Schweiz...5-content.html

In your case though, the father is not Swiss, nor is the child to be. As you say that it is probable that your husband will divorce you your reason to stay here is no longer given. You also say that you have no intention of marrying the father, so you are not a "family unit" either, which would be required for the regroupement familial. Also, to what extent is the father willing to commit to guaranteeing your existence here with his child. Talk is cheap as we all know, but will he sign the paper.

It will be interesting to see how the authorities decide, but probably not very black and white and may require the use of an immigration lawyer.

Added: Looking into it a bit deeper I came up with this:

http://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/dam/...nnachzug-f.pdf

6.1.2 Enfant né hors mariage
A sa naissance, l'enfant d'un couple non marié, qui vit avec ses deux parents, se verra octroyer la même autorisation que sa mère. Il obtiendra l'établissement en même temps qu'elle. Toutefois, en cas d’autorité parentale conjointe constatée par une décision de l’autorité tutélaire compétente, l’enfant se verra octroyer le statut du parent qui lui est les plus favorable. Ceci vaut également pour la mère ou le père qui vit seul avec l’enfant.

This means that the child gets the same permit as you. However, as yours may be revoked this may be an issue. If I understand correctly what is written above, you would need a) to live together and b) to get an official agreement of joint custody which would then ensure that your child gets the permit of the parent that would be most favourable.

Anyway, that is just amateur research. I am sure a specialised lawyer could advise you better.
Thanks for your reply...appreciated..what a mess. I assumed the child would receive the highest permit of the Two parents
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Old 31.12.2012, 00:20
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Re: Permit Mess (my fault)...Please help

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Are you sure that the ex boyfriend is the father?

Also, if the boyfriend is the father, I think Sweatpea has made a very valid point - how would you feel in the future if the father does decide to block the child from leaving the country? Do you want to stay in Switzerland as a single parent? Do you have a supportive family back home? Do you have the ability to support yourself back home? ( either with work or with social support.)

I wish you lots of luck and hope the situation can be talked through calmly with your husband., if you are SURE that the baby is not his.....
Thanks for your reply. Yes am sure 150%. The father will accept it as his own. My only worry lies on my residency status in the country after this. Also, if "still married" at the point of delivery, will the baby be forced to automatically take husbands last name?
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Old 31.12.2012, 00:26
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Re: Permit Mess (my fault)...Please help

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Thanks for your reply. Yes am sure 150%. The father will accept it as his own. My only worry lies on my residency status in the country after this. Also, if "still married" at the point of delivery, will the baby be forced to automatically take husbands last name?

The laws regarding names will change on January 1, 2013 (ie the day after tomorrow). The new laws are more flexible and are more balanced between the genders. There may be a way to have your child bear the father's name or your name if you are still using your maiden name.

http://www.humanrights.ch/fr/Suisse/...6-content.html
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Old 31.12.2012, 00:50
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Re: Permit Mess (my fault)...Please help

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Thanks for your reply. Yes am sure 150%. The father will accept it as his own. My only worry lies on my residency status in the country after this. Also, if "still married" at the point of delivery, will the baby be forced to automatically take husbands last name?
Divorce takes several months from start to finish (for a childless couple)
Any child born within 11 months after a divorce is considered to be the ex-husband's.
Women can not remarry for 11 months after a divorce unless they have a medical certificate indicating that they are not pregnant. Men can remarry immediately after a divorce.

I'm really sorry to read your difficulty and hope that you will find support and guidance to help you along your way.
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Old 31.12.2012, 05:08
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Re: Permit Mess (my fault)...Please help

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Divorce takes several months from start to finish (for a childless couple)
Any child born within 11 months after a divorce is considered to be the ex-husband's.
Women can not remarry for 11 months after a divorce unless they have a medical certificate indicating that they are not pregnant. Men can remarry immediately after a divorce.

I'm really sorry to read your difficulty and hope that you will find support and guidance to help you along your way.
Can one get engaged within those 11 months if pregnant?
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Old 31.12.2012, 08:10
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Re: Permit Mess (my fault)...Please help

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...
From what i've read so far, you lose your permit if marriage is non existent.
....
Just to clarify - is your marriage a sham marriage for the purpose of a permit, or do you mean will you lose your permit if you get divorced?

Sorry if it is an indelicate question, but how do you know the child is the fruit of your affair, and not fathered by your husband? Were you seperated for a long period over the critical time?
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Old 31.12.2012, 08:27
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Re: Permit Mess (my fault)...Please help

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Sorry if it is an indelicate question, but how do you know the child is the fruit of your affair, and not fathered by your husband? Were you seperated for a long period over the critical time?
What business of ours is that and what relevance is it?? She says she knows and is sure "150%". Surely that's enough
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Old 31.12.2012, 09:21
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Re: Permit Mess (my fault)...Please help

The relevance is that if she was having sex with her husband during the time she was having her affair, then he may be the father. Her belief that it is the other man may be born out of feelings of guilt, for example.

As to what business it is - if you ask questions on a public forum, expect to be asked questions from people who want to help! There's no obligation to answer.
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Old 31.12.2012, 09:33
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Re: Permit Mess (my fault)...Please help

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The relevance is that if she was having sex with her husband during the time she was having her affair, then he may be the father. Her belief that it is the other man may be born out of feelings of guilt, for example.

As to what business it is - if you ask questions on a public forum, expect to be asked questions from people who want to help! There's no obligation to answer.
I'd have thought that her saying that she is 150% sure would rule out that possibility.....but whatever floats your boat
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