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Old 08.01.2013, 10:57
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moving across the border (france)

Hello,
currently living in Switzerland, I plan to move across the border to Annemasse. I own a car here. I want to stay in Swiss social and medical insurance and keep paying taxes in Switzerland.

What might be the complication for moving to France? I come from EU country, so France residency shouldn't be a problem. I would not like to switch car to french plates, because of paperwork, fees (not sure how much) and if in future I will move, it will be within CH, so even more paperwork, fees etc.
Ideally I would like to notify as little offices as possible, just the ones needed for mailing address change (so banks, SBB, insurances, employer for salary statements, ...). I will not be able to keep name on current mailbox and check for mail.

I guess doing it officially would mean it would take longer to get Swiss citizenship somewhere in future?
Thanx for any help
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Old 08.01.2013, 11:23
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Re: moving across the border (france)

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Hello,
currently living in Switzerland, I plan to move across the border to Annemasse. I own a car here. I want to stay in Swiss social and medical insurance and keep paying taxes in Switzerland.

What might be the complication for moving to France? I come from EU country, so France residency shouldn't be a problem. I would not like to switch car to french plates, because of paperwork, fees (not sure how much) and if in future I will move, it will be within CH, so even more paperwork, fees etc.
Ideally I would like to notify as little offices as possible, just the ones needed for mailing address change (so banks, SBB, insurances, employer for salary statements, ...). I will not be able to keep name on current mailbox and check for mail.
It sounds like you intend to not have a Swiss address at all, which will not allow what you want. To do it, even outside the rules, you'll need a real Swiss address to be registered at, and ensure that mail is picked up regularly. You'll be at risk from French customs who may check your address is a) real and b) actually used by you as a main residence (for at least the required number of days per year).

If you're planning on simply maintaining a Swiss letter-box address my advice is simple - Don't. You'll be guilty of all sorts of fraudulent things if you do, and potentially in big trouble with both French and Swiss authorities. Tens of thousands of euro/francs worth of trouble, I mean, and possibly persona-non-grata in CH if you've been diddling your taxes.

Last time I looked (for us) the requirement, if you want to do it legally and risk-free, was that you had to spend at least 60 working-day nights in Switzerland to officially be Swiss resident, not French. We have real homes in both countries and easily satisfy that criterion, and have never had any trouble, at least since the bi-lateral agreement that defines it came into place back in 2005 or so (I forget the actual date).

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I guess doing it officially would mean it would take longer to get Swiss citizenship somewhere in future?
Well yes, you'll need to give up your Swiss residency status. But why would you want to be a Swiss citizen if you're already EU?
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Old 08.01.2013, 13:06
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Re: moving across the border (france)

Guys, I don't plan to do any complicated stuff here, no tax manipulation or similar. Simple move of somebody who is resident in Vaud for more than 2 years, but needs to move just across the border. I am currently taxed at source in Geneva, I guess that would remain same.
I didn't understand whole mailbox things, I would NOT keep a Swiss mailbox. I cannot do it, my name will be removed after I move out. That's the thing - so all insurances, banks, SBB etc will have to send mail to French address (are they OK with that?)
The most annoying to me seems car thing. They send once a year cheque for car tax, and 2 months ago they called me for MFK (passed). So If I am able to NOT change plates at least for a year, that would be ideal.

So I will move officially, not wanting any kind of trouble with authorities. Meaning finding accommodation in FR, de-registering for residency permit in Vaud, and opposite process in FR I guess. Am I right?
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Old 08.01.2013, 13:08
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Re: moving across the border (france)

You would have to deregister. If you don't, you might encounter trouble - tax, health insurance, having to deregister cars, etc.

What are you trying to achieve?
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Old 08.01.2013, 13:19
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Re: moving across the border (france)

Basically you can't do what you are asking about.You either move to a different country or you don't.

If you do then you have to do all the paperwork required including changing plates, changing drivers licenses, changing health insurance, de-registiring, etc.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.
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Old 08.01.2013, 13:40
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Re: moving across the border (france)

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Guys, I don't plan to do any complicated stuff here, no tax manipulation or similar. Simple move of somebody who is resident in Vaud for more than 2 years, but needs to move just across the border. I am currently taxed at source in Geneva, I guess that would remain same.
I didn't understand whole mailbox things, I would NOT keep a Swiss mailbox. I cannot do it, my name will be removed after I move out. That's the thing - so all insurances, banks, SBB etc will have to send mail to French address (are they OK with that?)
The most annoying to me seems car thing. They send once a year cheque for car tax, and 2 months ago they called me for MFK (passed). So If I am able to NOT change plates at least for a year, that would be ideal.

So I will move officially, not wanting any kind of trouble with authorities. Meaning finding accommodation in FR, de-registering for residency permit in Vaud, and opposite process in FR I guess. Am I right?
I'm not sure what wasn't clear from my previous reply, but just to re-iterate - you either retain Swiss residency by actually staying here in some form or another, or you give it up and move to France. You will not be able to keep all those things you list without a valid Swiss address.
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Old 08.01.2013, 14:14
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Re: moving across the border (france)

You pay taxes where you live, France will demand you pay tax and health insurance. Your car insurance will be invalid when you no longer live in Switzerland.

When you leave your appartment the landlord will inform Geneva, and when you have no new Swiss address, your work permit will be cancelled.

I really don't think you understand either French or Swiss sytems.
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Old 08.01.2013, 14:44
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Re: moving across the border (france)

What am I trying to achieve - lower the cost, or more precisely, get more for same money than here. And lower my commuting time, this will be 1:20 -> 30 minutes.
Guys, at least some of you are not giving me correct info. All people commuting from FR -> GVA are paying french taxes, do not have any option to be part of swiss medical or social insurance? Really?
For example my colleague mentioned that with moving I should do the car-related change within a year.
Another example - I am pretty sure I will be able to keep my bank accounts. Maybe PostFinance will charge me for not living in CH anymore, but I am pretty sure I will not have to give up account.
Another colleague - french, living in Annecy, having all kinds of swiss social insurance, paying taxes in geneva and having medical insurance in FR (that makes sense).
Is there somebody who actually made similar move? I mean, just Annemasse has at least 30k frontaliers from what I heard. I am sure it ain't that gloomy
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Old 08.01.2013, 14:53
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Re: moving across the border (france)

Sounds to me like you DO want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to officially reside in France - but you want the laws of Switzerland to apply for you to pay taxes, register your car, pay insurance and so on.

And you don't see why this won't work?
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Old 08.01.2013, 15:24
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Re: moving across the border (france)

I don't know how reality of this move looks like, that's why I am asking here.
I just wrote couple of examples that are exact opposite of what is written here - ie taxation. Several people mentioned me that when you move to France while working here, you are picking where you will be taxed, where you will pay social insurance. Not sure about health one.
I have only fractions of info, so maybe this is only possible to french citizens.
Is it so hard to see why I ask?
Of course I want as hassle-free and low-cost solution, without facing troubles with Swiss authorities.
So question (still) is - what is possible? What are options?
So far only response is - either everything in Switzerland, if you live here, or everything in France - if you live there. Few people around me do not fall in either of this.
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Old 08.01.2013, 15:28
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Re: moving across the border (france)

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So question (still) is - what is possible? What are options?
So far only response is - either everything in Switzerland, if you live here, or everything in France - if you live there. Few people around me do not fall in either of this.
That is your only option, unless you are a frontalier. Please learn to search the Forum....

http://geneva.angloinfo.com/forum/vi...border-commute

Tax table frontalier Geneve

Frontaliers moving to Switzerland to avoid heavy taxation
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Old 08.01.2013, 15:35
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Re: moving across the border (france)

Ok. I think your question is confusing. That's the problem.

If you are working in Geneva and living in France, then Geneva and France has some sort of agreement where you pay your taxes at source then Geneva and France work out who gets how much of your salary.

Health insurance is in France. You used to be able to get a frontelier policy but recently the laws have changed there and not for the better. You'll need to look up this topic separately.

Car, yes, you have some time to change over your car and your driver's license. But you have to do it eventually. You'll have to check with the officials if you have 6 months or 12 months to do it.

Social contributions: If you are unemployed you get French unemployment, not Swiss. Pension: Almost positive you'll be put in the French system.

You should check out the other threads about people wanting to live in France. There are a lot of them. And look out for posts by FrankZappa. He lives in France and knows what is what.
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Old 08.01.2013, 15:38
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Re: moving across the border (france)

regarding health insurance, at the moment you can choose to be in either Swiss or French system or opt for French private insurance - but careful, as the latter is only an option until 2014. There are some exceptions, but if you choose French private when you become a frontalier, you will be automatically transferred to French system in 2014.
http://www.travailler-en-suisse.ch/assurance-sante-frontalier-defendez-vos-droits-et-signez-la-petition.html (in French)

I haven't had any issues with keeping bank accounts, except that my bank would not send me the new card, had to go pick it up myself.
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Old 08.01.2013, 15:48
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Re: moving across the border (france)

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Guys, at least some of you are not giving me correct info. All people commuting from FR -> GVA are paying french taxes, do not have any option to be part of swiss medical or social insurance? Really?
Yes. Except for those who are retaining a Swiss address, either legally or illegally as I have already mentioned.

Why is that so difficult to believe?
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Old 08.01.2013, 16:42
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Re: moving across the border (france)

Hmm, thanx for this info to all.
I did try to search but with wrong words.

So basically what I will have to do:
- deregister in Lausanne with my current residence permit (OK with this)
- eventually change plates, driving license, and this means also car insurance (well, what can I do)
- all swiss social insurance (need to check with FrankZappa, in some posts he writes different stuff)

What would I keep
- taxation in Geneva at source
- swiss health insurance

Would this have any impact on my current work permit (B) ?
It might not be worth it, since Geneva might not be my permanent work location in following years. Switzerland for sure will be.
What are the sites for flat-share adds? Usual homegate doesn't have this feature, and the only one I know of is glocals.
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Old 08.01.2013, 16:52
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Re: moving across the border (france)

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Would this have any impact on my current work permit (B) ?
Yes. Your B permit will go bye-bye and you will need to apply for a G permit.
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Old 08.01.2013, 17:26
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Re: moving across the border (france)

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Yes. Your B permit will go bye-bye and you will need to apply for a G permit.
Now that is not nice. Having my 5-year (4 still to go) B permit cancelled is probably biggest bummer. I guess following G permit would be closely tied to my work status (ie cancelled when job ends). My country has currently permit quotas for B permit, which would make it annoying (and in case of contracting, even prohibiting).
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Old 08.01.2013, 17:33
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Re: moving across the border (france)

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You pay taxes where you live
Depends on the country involved.

Italians commuting from Italy only pay Swiss taxes, confirmed by several of my co-workers.

Tom
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Old 08.01.2013, 18:19
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Re: moving across the border (france)

To the OP - So after seeing all this information, are you still set on moving? Are you going to save so much in taxes or whatever that it's worth the hassle and losing your B permit??
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Old 09.01.2013, 09:46
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Re: moving across the border (france)

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To the OP - So after seeing all this information, are you still set on moving? Are you going to save so much in taxes or whatever that it's worth the hassle and losing your B permit??
Heh, exactly what I am thinking right now. The biggest motivation for me would be having my own studio compared to flat-sharing for comparable prices in Geneva. Also, alps are closer and that is my destination most of the weekends.
I didn't expect to save much, rather buy more quality food for the same money. But losing B permit alone is not worth the hassle.

One question for everybody - if I switch cantons (Vaud -> Geneva), while working in Geneva, what happens to my current work permit? Is it issued by canton where I work or where I live? (I don't have it currently with me).
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