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-   -   New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport (https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-visas-government/184524-new-report-drastic-increase-expats-giving-up-us-passport.html)

MartinDM 10.08.2013 10:24

New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport
 
The article this morning details a huge growth in the number of US citizens giving up their passport. I think there was some discussion earlier that we don't even know if these are the real numbers. At what point will the US government notice or care? I am sure that if some central or south american countries began to require this financial reporting from their citizens living in the US, the US government might notice, but until then I can imagine the numbers as seen in this report will grow exponentially.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-0...nship-surge-66

Wallabies 10.08.2013 10:39

Re: New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport
 
So 1800 people gave up citizenship hardly a number that will worry the US even if it was 10000 which is an even bigger increase it is hardly a big number

yacek 10.08.2013 10:51

Re: New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport
 
Millions are waiting for a US passport (and not granted so they go on working hard and keeping their heads down).

Sean Connery 10.08.2013 11:10

Re: New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport
 
1800 out of 313.9 million....? You have more chance with Euromillions...!

Guest 10.08.2013 13:00

Re: New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport
 
True that these renunciation figures (inaccurate as they are since the FBI per the Brady Act is reporting higher numbers than the Treasury department) are relatively small.

However, consider the talent, brainpower and "value-addition potential" of those expatriating (generally well-off and educated individuals in OECD countries) compared to those wanting to immigrate to the US (any John Doe can sign up for a Green Card lottery)!

MartinDM 10.08.2013 13:11

Re: New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport
 
Point(s) taken. . .
There was a discussion (I think) last February where forum members were questioning if the numbers (of citizens giving up passports) released by the US government were even accurate.

The numbers released are nothing compared the number of actual US citizens. . . of course. But a US citizen living in the US isn't going to give up citizenship. The more significant statistic (especially for EF members who happen to be passport holders) is the population of US citizens (or those who just happen to be citizens) who live abroad permanently and have chosen to give up their passport.

Wallabies 10.08.2013 13:16

Re: New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by brusch (Post 1947414)

However, consider the talent, brainpower and "value-addition potential" of those expatriating (generally well-off and educated individuals in OECD countries) compared to those wanting to immigrate to the US (any John Doe can sign up for a Green Card lottery)!

Wheres your evidence to prove the expats are any smarter then those that are applying to enter the US.

Medea Fleecestealer 10.08.2013 14:03

Re: New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport
 
The story's also doing the rounds on EuraisaReview, Business Week and WSJ Europe/US versions according to IBS's website. Yes there are inaccuracies in the lists, but what you also have to remember is that these lists don't give the numbers of people relinquishing instead of renouncing. IBS reckon there tend to be 5/6 people relinquishing for every person who renounces so the total number of people giving up US citizenship is much higher anyway. That gives you around 9,000/10,800 in the first half of the year and there's still two more quarters to go. Still only thousands compared to the millions wanting in, but not something the US will want to brag about.

I know from the IBS that there are some people there who renounced in the last couple of years who haven't appeared on the list yet, but I'm there having only renounced in March this year. So how names get added to the list under what criteria is a complete mystery at present.

poptart 10.08.2013 15:35

Re: New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport
 
Most of the people relinquishing have likely been living outside the US for a long time, probably with a spouse, and are doing so for tax reasons, and have no intention of returning. I don't see any real drama there. If EU countries kept similar statistics for emigrants to the US who, though don't relinquish, don't return either, I'm sure it'd make for some far more interesting conversation points.

Medea Fleecestealer 10.08.2013 16:51

Re: New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poptart (Post 1947490)
Most of the people relinquishing have likely been living outside the US for a long time, probably with a spouse, and are doing so for tax reasons, and have no intention of returning. I don't see any real drama there. If EU countries kept similar statistics for emigrants to the US who, though don't relinquish, don't return either, I'm sure it'd make for some far more interesting conversation points.

So have many of us who've renounced poptart. The threat of having my bank account/s closed, not tax reasons, is why I gave up citizenship to a country I haven't lived in for 45+ years. Most of those doing the same are like me; we're not rich and we don't owe the US tax man anything, we just want to be able to bank, get a mortgage, save a little without feeling like criminals because of our nationality. I doubt any statistics would show so many people giving up their citizenship because of one ill-conceived law either.

Medea Fleecestealer 10.08.2013 17:06

Re: New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinDM (Post 1947319)
The article this morning details a huge growth in the number of US citizens giving up their passport. I think there was some discussion earlier that we don't even know if these are the real numbers. At what point will the US government notice or care? I am sure that if some central or south american countries began to require this financial reporting from their citizens living in the US, the US government might notice, but until then I can imagine the numbers as seen in this report will grow exponentially.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-0...nship-surge-66

The problem with that idea MartinDM is that the US has already said it won't reciprocate on exchange of info. Which makes the various IGA's that the Treasury/IRS have negotiated worthless to those countries who were foolish enough to sign up to them. Congress is getting snarky over the IRS stepping on their toes, and businesses/banks/credit unions don't want them to pass any laws to allow reciprocity because it will cost them millions and billions to implement - just as it has cost the rest of the world to comply with the US's bullying tactic. Given that the US is now probably the biggest tax haven in the world, the hypocrisy is unbelieveable.

MartinDM 10.08.2013 20:52

Re: New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 1947511)
So have many of us who've renounced poptart. The threat of having my bank account/s closed, not tax reasons, is why I gave up citizenship to a country I haven't lived in for 45+ years. Most of those doing the same are like me; we're not rich and we don't owe the US tax man anything, we just want to be able to bank, get a mortgage, save a little without feeling like criminals because of our nationality. I doubt any statistics would show so many people giving up their citizenship because of one ill-conceived law either.

@MedeaFleecestealer I didn't realize that their wasn't reciprocity offered as part of the deal.

In your case, having been here for 45 years, of course it makes sense to give up your passport. However, for the population of people who have just moved here, they probably aren't going to wait 45 years to decide its not worth the blue passport if they have decided to make Switzerland (or any place other than the USofA) their home. It will be interesting to see if the "new generation" of US expats give up their citizenship more quickly. Of course, they could only do so if they already have some kind of dual or have been here long enough to allow them to receive a red passport.

Guest 11.08.2013 00:56

Re: New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wallabies (Post 1947429)
Wheres your evidence to prove the expats are any smarter then those that are applying to enter the US.

Simple, those that give it up are smart enough to realize the complications that comes with US tax policy than those who are applying to enter the US, who don't do their homework!

Medea Fleecestealer 11.08.2013 09:39

Re: New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinDM (Post 1947589)
@MedeaFleecestealer I didn't realize that their wasn't reciprocity offered as part of the deal.

In your case, having been here for 45 years, of course it makes sense to give up your passport. However, for the population of people who have just moved here, they probably aren't going to wait 45 years to decide its not worth the blue passport if they have decided to make Switzerland (or any place other than the USofA) their home. It will be interesting to see if the "new generation" of US expats give up their citizenship more quickly. Of course, they could only do so if they already have some kind of dual or have been here long enough to allow them to receive a red passport.

Oh, the IGA's say that the US will reciprocate, but that's what has upset Congress because they say the IRS doesn't have the right/power to make such decisions. Only Congress can do that. There are some steps being taken to try and get laws which will allow the US to fulfill it's part of the bargain, but when/if they ever actually become law is anyone's guess.

However, what has been done recently is this:

http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/08/...another-means/

It's the first time a John Doe has been used on behalf of another country's goverment and gets around the problem of there being no legislation in place for reciprocity by the US at present.

I agree MartinDM. All the recent publicity about FATCA and the various problems it's causing around the world will make those Americans considering working abroad much more aware of their obligations re the US and tax filing. I, like many, wasn't even aware I should have been filing until recently and it was a shock to find that out. It simply wasn't mentioned when my family left the US so many years ago. Although the law itself is quite old, it's only in the last ten years or so that the government/IRS has been pushing to get US citizens abroad to file tax, trying to get the info out to expats by telling them in the back of the passports and having notices at the embassies. But only my last passport mentioned this; the previous two say nothing about having to file tax returns at all. Nor were we told anything about it when renewing our US passports during personal visits to the embassy in London.

FrankZappa 11.08.2013 11:12

Re: New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport
 
I'm missing something here. Why do we care?

Some US citizens living out of the US decide to renounce US citizenship, presumably for tax purposes, so what?

Medea Fleecestealer 11.08.2013 13:01

Re: New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport
 
Some nut shoots up a school in the US. So what? :rolleyes: Why should we care?

Why not? Gives us something to talk about. ;)

MartinDM 11.08.2013 14:03

Re: New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankZappa (Post 1947816)
I'm missing something here. Why do we care?

Some US citizens living out of the US decide to renounce US citizenship, presumably for tax purposes, so what?

The only answer I could find online to your question was on this website.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum

. . . apparently (and I was personally shocked by this) posts within a given online forum may not be of interest to all forum members. :msngrin:

st2lemans 11.08.2013 14:21

Re: New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankZappa (Post 1947816)
Some US citizens living out of the US decide to renounce US citizenship, presumably for tax purposes, so what?

In my case, it wasn't tax reasons, but rather I was tired of filling out forms to show that I owed no taxes, tired of having to have a second passport just in case I wanted to go to the US, etc.

It was just wasting my time for nothing, and I was sick of it.

FATCA didn't even exist when I renounced.

Tom

CaliforniaZRH 11.08.2013 22:32

Re: New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport
 
I went through the list that the blog post linked to. A lot of the
names are foreign. A large potion of those people might just
be foreign national who are giving up this costly "second passport"
in the first place.

Case in point, the famous Eduardo Saverin of Facebook. He's
a native brazilian who got US citizenship because he probably
thought that it was a good idea at the time. But not anymore.

Linnéa UZH 16.08.2013 08:32

Re: New report on drastic increase in expats giving up US passport
 
Just saw this on Le Temps website (www.letemps.ch).

The choice of picture is provocative imo!




http://i42.tinypic.com/2cijxq8.jpg


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