Moin folks!

Its great to have an english forum to deal with swiss issues

I just joined the forum, and hopefully someone can kindly bare with my questions and answer a couple

1) Applying for the short-term L work permit

I want to work for my company from Swiss for about 4 months during May to Sept 2006. They are one of the major computer firms in the US, and have an office in Zuerich, so I'll be working there.

I saw online that there are some work-permit quotas, and I'm an Indian citizen, who has been studying/working in the US for some time. Does anyone know where I can find out if they still have the quota open for L permits? Or, perhaps even how hard it is to get one of them.

I would be planning to apply for my visa in San Francisco anytime soon, since they do state it takes about 6-8 weeks to process the applications.

2) Taxes
Another concern I have is, how do the taxes apply for me? I have seen another thread here which states, some of the tax refunds take upto 3 years to process!! ?? Is this true for the L permit as well? I also haven't found anyway to figure how much taxes I would be paying in total on my 4-month salary in Swiss. Can someone please suggest a tax calculator or any such resource which I might find helpful to figure my earning range?

3) Insurance
I understand Swiss has a compulsary health insurance policy. Don't employers pay for this like they do here in the US? I seen a bunch of posts about people trying to figure which insurance is better

4) Drivers license
Finally, can people with US drivers license drive around in Swiss? I _absolutely_ love driving I have a US car/motorcycle permit, and would like to buy a car and a motorbike (~600cc) once i get to Swiss. I am hoping i dont need to go thru the entire Swiss drivers test thing to be allowed to drive a car or bike in Swiss

Thanks a lot for the help.
Happy new year!

Hello here are some of the answers to your questions. Let me start by saying oh dear, after so many years living in the relaxed West Coast you might get a shock living here!

Firstly with respect to your permit, an L Permit is realtively easy to get and generally the quotas for these are ample although this is not true everywhere. However (first oh dear) you are an Indian citizen and therefore not from the EU. Switzerland has a bilateral agreement with the EU and therefore treats EU citizens with an advantage and discriminates against the others. It then has a ranking list used to determine how easily it is to get a permit to work dependent on qualifications, country of origin, job to be done, length of permit required and so on. You personally will not get a permit by application yourself, this needs to come from your company demonstrating an inter-company transfer. Furthermore, and I will be totally honest here, since the above agreement the rules for giving any permits out to non-EU citizens have been tightened and you need to be either a senior executive or employed on a short term contract or performing specific research. Your Swiss company HR department will be very familiar with the process and you will need to get this done in conjunction with the required Visa. It is also important to determine on application for the visa whether you will be travelling within the EU as well. So it is now as clear as mud!!

Everyone working within Switzerland on an L Permit is liable to tax. The Tax system in CH is complex and has 3 tiers. As an L permit holder you are charged tax at source and are unable to reclaim this unless your annualised salary is in excess of 120K and then only if the Gemeinde in which you are living accept this (which I am afraid they probably won't and therfore you are unlikely to see the money again!). As to the tax calculator you need to speak to your HR department and opt for the lowest form of L permit tax which I believe is 8%. You will need to specifiy that you want to take this route. Basically it is a pre-payment and you would "normally" then top it up to whatever it should be - which of course you won't do because you will be long gone.

For short termers like you I am not sure this applies. After 1 year residence it is compulsory but for short term I am not so sure and no employers definitely do not pay for this. As usual the cost will be dependent on the Gemeinde you live in...

And you might guess that here is an oh dear... As a short term L Permit holder it is very unlikely you will get a car or motorbike sold to you. If you do, with a US license you can drive 1 year without a Swiss test.

And yes the Swiss do have funny and strict rules and unfortunately they do enforce them and they do have a habit of finding the poor soles who try to get around them, although I do know of one or two who are still managing.

Richard

Hey Richard!

I really appreciate the time you have taken to answer my questions.

West coast.. yeehaaa! Well, I just moved here for grad school actually, but its really awesome here. I spent a few years of undergrad on the east coast. geez.. i hate the weather down there.. actually, lets switch topics before you complain about a 7ft, 1000lb green hulky monster

So, since yesterday I have data mined the web to get more info on Zurich taxations/permits, etc. I did find quite a lot of useful info and your information rightly supports it.

What I have found is the L permit has no quota limitations if you are working only for 4 months or less. I plan to work for 4 months, pretty much exactly perhaps, so this enables me to fall into the "non-quota" L permit category. I'm not sure if there is discrimination or preferential treatment (pick one based on politicial/wing affiliation ) for this type of permits too.

My company is fairly huge, we are one of the bigger tech companies around, so I am hoping the HR out there know what they are doing.

As for the job, I'm kinda young (21), but I'm a senior engineer, so i'm hoping there is no big deal with the permit itself. I heard generally going to good schools and such helps out with these permits. I'm a Stanford grad student now, so hopefully wont have too much of a problem with qualifications.

Regarding taxes, you have pretty much hit the nail on the issue. My company will be deducting the taxes directly for each paycheck, and I get to file deductions (house rent, meals, travel expenses) at the end of the year. I do make over 120K USD/yr, but you have to understand, for 4 months, the gross pay in Swiss is lower than the full yearly salary.

Pheww... why am I being sooo cheap??
In US, I pay like 40% as taxes, I should be thanking even if swiss kept 20% of my pay

Are you serious about buying a car or a bike!!! thats so funny.. I used to think, all you need to buy a car/bike is money. Damn, looks like the rap culture in the US has blinded me from reality!

Hopefully, I can buy some bread without security clearances and paperwork

Hey you have hit on a couple of points there. The first one is good schools make a difference - well actually it is more like are they officially registered or not ie did I pay 100 bucks for a degree or did I do some work. And the second is with the American taxes you do get a "discount" I think as far as the Americans are concerned the first $80K becomes tax free to subsidize the foreign tax payments. You need to clear this up with HR as it is fairly common. Oh and don't believe that there are no quotas on 4 month permits - just there are ample... And do believe you will as a foreigner be discriminated against (Although and I might be shot down for this - in Zurich it is not so bad...) Check whether your HR can find you accomodation as part of a package. You don't happen to work for HP do you - if you do I might (will) be able to get you the name of the person to contact.

Good luck

Thanks once again for the reply.

Nop, I'm not with HP I plan to either sublet a place from a good friend of mine living in Zurich Kanton, or we plan do some apt. hunting when I get there. As such, I was assured there is no urgent need to find a place once I land in Swiss. I have most of my permits/tax research completed, so I guess if things go as planned, I'll be there around May 15th'ish.

For future references to anyone reading this thread, a good website to check up on Zurich area work-permits/taxes, etc. is at:

http://www.welcome.zh.ch/internet/vd...roschuere.html

Just download all the brochures and read them thoroughly. You will not be disappointed.

Hi I won't be rude but I will be blunt... You have more chance of winning the lottery than renting an apartment for 4 months after you arrive here!

Firstly, with the type of permit you will have you are restricted to Kanton Zurich.

Secondly, and I am sure anyone here will back this up, there are barely enough apartments to go around for those with B and C permits or the little red passports.

Thirdly, the people who rent apartments don't like short term rents. In fact the Swiss renters don't seem to like them either so that generally you can terminate a contract twice per year on specific dates and most contracts share the same dates so you can imagine the chaos on those dates!

Fourthly, and sorry for saying this but you are foreign so some renters won't even entertain you because clearly as a non-Swiss you will completely wreck the flat!!!! Yeah right but some do believe this!

There are however aparthotels around where you pay CHF2 - 3K per month and get a hotel room sized place. Here you rent by the month min 3 months and no I can't recommend any.
Cheers

Richard

alternately, you could look for a room to rent from someone who wants a short-term housemate.....still in Zurich of course.

Marshall Law?

Hi,

Point I was trying to make was do it before you come and not after you arrive otherwise the 4 months will be up and you will still be looking...... And I agree that a flatmate solution is probably the best(only?!) option

Richard

Hello helloswiss,

I'm a bit late onto this thread, but mostly agree with Richard on this one. I've got a few comments of my own to add which might help out.

Your length of stay is short - so this won't be so bad, and also means you won't mind being treated like dirt for a while. In Switzerland what you are allowed to do is determined by where you are in the food chain. Those who consider themselves "lucky" enough to have a red passport are at the top of the food chain, they can vote every three months, pay their taxes at the end of the year, enjoy forced military or civil service and do pretty much whatever they like as long as it doesn't involve flushing the toilet after 10pm.

Next in line are the C permit holders like Richard and I. We can do almost everything the Swiss can, except we can't vote, and we can't leave the country for more than 2 years (or is it one year?). We still end up paying more for car insurance than the Swiss, and will probably be passed over for apartments if there is a similiarly qualified Swiss. We have the permanent right to remain, and can work and live outside of our home canton. If we kiss enough ass we might be ordained as Swiss after many years (though many decline).

Next down are the B-EU holders. These days they have almost the same rights at the C permit holders, but cannot leave the country for more than 3 months. Their permits are valid for 5 years. They can also buy cars, and have mobile phones on contract (both B and C permit holders generally have to pay 500-1000 francs security deposit to have a landline or mobile contract). They also have tax deducted at source. Their tax returns will take 2-3 years to process.

After this come the normal B permit holders. These are a dying breed since B permits are now almost exclusively given to EU citizens only. These permit holders must hold a job, the permit is tied to their employer only, and you aren't permitted to live outside of your home canton. You can buy a car at this level though.

Now comes the L permit - for "Lehrling" (apprentice). Much easier to get, but unfortunately not much in the way of priviledges. Many people I know ended up with these when they first arrived, and can tell you many tales of what they were not allowed to do. First of all you won't be able to register a car (you could buy one for export if you want). You can't live outside of your home canton. Since you can't own a car, your car insurance won't be a problem. You might be able to get a bank account, but without anything like an ATM/EFTPOS card. You'll have to visit the branch to get your money. Since you are at the bottom of the heap and generally seen as an extremely temporary part of society this will give you an idea of the way you'll be treated.

So as Richard said - forget about an apartment, forget about a car. Your best bet is to sleep on someone's couch for the duration of your stay - or maybe you find someone with a spare room free for that period. It happens sometimes...

You will be able to drive on your existing US licence though. With respect to taxes I'm pretty sure that you will continue to be paid your US salary by your company, to your US account. This means you'll continue on US taxes, and since you won't actually end up as tax resident in Switzerland, you won't have to concern yourself about this. Your existing US health insurance should cover you for your time in Switzerland - but your HR department (the Swiss one) can clarify this for you.

Sorry - life here isn't as easy as driving around the mountains - it's complicated for the Swiss too - though they generally have no understanding of the hoops that foreigners sometimes have to jump through in the beginning - because it never applied to them!

The part that bugged me the most was the car thing - my B permit took 8 weeks to come through. I'd already bought a car, but it had to sit in the dealer's yard for 8 weeks because I wasn't allowed to register it. When the Swiss go on holiday to another country they can buy a car, drive it around, and sell it at the end of the holiday. The same cannot be done here!

Mark

Mark,

Thanks for the candid comments. I spoke to our HR co-ordinator and they assured the company has some corporate housing (albeit slightly expensive for 4 months) if I can't find a place, so i think housing is the least of my worries now.

I still can't believe they dont let you own a car on an L permit!! Very weird. But most laws have a loophole, and it seems this one is no exception

Last week at work, we were discussing some stuff about my upcoming european vacation (err.. work reloc). So, as part of the discussion I brought up the idiocy of not able to own a car, but apparently the way to get around this is to buy a car in Germany as a tourist. Since I'm on a tourist visa for the rest of schengen, its apparently legal. I was actually planning on selling my current M3 and buying the new 911. It turns out Porsche has a european deliver and its basically designed for you to come to europe, stay for like 2-4 weeks and drive your car around. Then they ship it to US as a "used car", so you actually save a few grands off the total price in taxes! wicked! They even pay for the insurance, license plates to go around europe and complimentary tours of famous places I heard I can pay extra to extend the services if i want more than those 2-4 weeks, so i will have to plan that out.

I highly recommend this option to any US resident travelling for business/pleasure to Europe. Just order your car about 8-10 weeks prior to delivery date in a US dealership.

The link:
http://www.porsche.com/usa/eventsand...ngyourporsche/

Note: BMW also does this! who's getting an M5/6?? hit me up please!

Another thing is, I find it totally awkward that there is such discrimination in rights for foreigners based on their permits. May I ask why you guys still choose to work/live in the hell you describe? I mean, if it really is as bad as described, i don't feel its worth it. It doesn't sound like a very immigrant-friendly environment. I came to the US about 4 years ago (undergrad.) and none of these funny stories you guys describe exist here in such a scale that you see it on every tourist forum post. Sure some people get picked on, but there is definetely the level of respect you deserve based on your skills and knowledge and not just the color of your skin.

I should however admit, I have spent 2 weeks in Zurich area last year with some of my ETHZ friends. I got invited to dinner at one of their parents' and ofcourse I haven't found the slightest ill-feeling in their hospitality. The 2 weeks were just a blast. They were quite friendly folks, afaik. May be its quite different in the corporate environment.. I shall soon findout.. I'm thinking of keeping an open air ticket back to US.. just in case I feel like I had enough. Good thing no one is doing me a favor by letting me work in Swiss.

Well Mark does have a way of getting straight to the point and sometimes the next stop passed it...

When you get here you will find that high salaries and low taxes are the main reason to stay coupled with reasonable summers and great winter sports... It is also very clean and crime is very low. So you can park your Porsche with the doors unlocked and go away for a weekend and not be miserable the whole time thinking the car will be gone when I get back... Now another thing is that Porsche generally have a 6 month wait so how do you jump that?

Richard

Well that all depends where you park it. Sorry - have to jump in here. Reasonable summers - well the last 2 were absolute rubbish. Depends what you are used to - if you come from a country where summer happens on a single weekend in the year - agreed. Great winter sports - agreed. Very clean: sorry - can't agree on that one, I find it quite dirty - but again it depends on what you are used to. High salaries - you've probably noticed that salaries haven't been on the move for quite some time. On my recent visit to Australia I found that people who do the same sort of work as you and I now have exactly the same salary level there as they do here. In the case of the US every time I've done the comparison salaries in the US have been higher for my type of work. Taxes - another myth - and it depends what you compare it to. People love to point to the taxes in nordic countries and say that Swiss taxes are low. Switzerland is actually pretty much in the middle when it comes to the tax burden on the average person compared with all other OECD countries, of course if you are very rich then this is another story...Last point - crime - yes and no. Ask a policeman in Zurich what they think of the crime rate... It all depends where you live, in many parts of the US you leave your door unlocked, but in other parts you probably get your entire door stolen.. I've got my 2002 edition of the economist "pocket world in figures" in front of me and Denmark ranks number 1 (worst) for theft and Switzerland number 7. Mind you there is a note warning the reader than crime statistics often depend on the efficency of the reporting systems of the country and the policeforce.. The UK isn't even on the list and we all know that anything that isn't nailed down in the UK is fair game, especially up north :-)

Ok - sorry that had nothing to do with short term work permits - just another point of view.

This is excellent news. This means probably your most stressful issue is solved - congratulations!

Ummm, loophole? We aren't talking about laws which supposedly stop US soldiers from torturing prisoners here - we are talking about Swiss laws, there usually are no loopholes.

Yes, I should have mentioned that, though it isn't usually the first piece of advice that springs to mind for prospective visitors, for obvious reasons. :-)

That said, it is the only way I know of apart from renting or borrowing someone else's car that you'll have a car while you are here. I subletted my apartment to an American guy (well, a Texan) last year, and this is exactly what he did. Basically you have to haul yourself to Germany and go collect it. You'll then be driving it around as a tourist in Switzerland, which you can do for up to 1 year. By the way, registering a car in Germany is also no simple matter, but if they handle it all for you...

European cars seem to be highly valued by people in the US, possibly because American cars are such rubbish (but then again, you guys can buy good Japanese cars quite cheaply too!), so this does seem to be a popular thing to do. I have a BMW 728i (2000 model) and I think it is the biggest pile of junk - the sooner I can sell it off the better! The M5 is also, well... I won't spoil for you :-)

Yeah I find it a little bit strange too, but after a while you get sick of talking about it.

Well some of us (me) didn't know what we were getting into, but we've been through the worst of it now, so we just sit around bitching about it on forums like this :-) Richard and I are both EU citizens, are white and hold C Permits. At the risk of bragging we live in good areas and have comfortable lives. But that doesn't mean I still get outraged by the fact that you are going to be stopped every single time at the border because you have dark skin (and because you'll be driving a fancy car - you must be a drug dealer in that case).

I'd really love for someone to tell me that it is immigrant friendly. I was also naturalised in a country that sees immigration as vital to its future, so I think I can say that I agree with your comments. In fact, immigration is a word I hardy hear. We often see graphs of "einburgern" (to become a citizen) but this is usually in a context of it being a bad thing, and too many foreigners are getting their hands on passports. In fact, a recent campaign by the right wing SVP showed a poster to discourage Swiss voters for voting for Schengen - it showed a cartoon of various hands reaching for a swiss passport and the caption "Schengen - Nein". All but 1 of the hands was black or dark. That should speak volumes.

Now I feel bad - I hope we aren't giving you the impression that you are going to be hunted down by the KKK - far from it. Naturally you'll meet many people who will treat you like an equal. It's just that every time you deal with officials, you won't feel that way. If you make the mistake of reading the racist hate materials that arrives in your letterbox from some of the political parties you'll also feel terrible. But don't let this cause you to have preconceived ideas about racist attitudes in Switzerland. The fact is that you'll only be here for 4 months, and you aren't trying to make this your home. This will affect the way you think about it. If you wanted to live the rest of your life here then you would probably be a little disappointed that you'll never be accepted. On the other hand if you become an American, you'll be an American, everybody will accept you as an American (as long as you support the troops!) and everyone will be happy. Just as every American isn't a gun -toting Bush supporter, not every Swiss has a problem with foreigners.

Mark

Guys I'm not sure which Switzerland you live in, but I've had none of these problems.

When I arrived in Jan 2005, my Gemeinde told me they had run out of B permits and gave me an L - which I have so far used to rent an apartment, register a Swiss car, apply for a Swiss driving licence, open 3 bank accounts with EC/Maestro cards and even get a credit card! Oh, and I spent 120 days outside the country last year and they didn't have a problem with that either (how can they tell anyway, I only get stopped at the border one time in 20).

When my permit ran out at the end of last year I went to ask for an upgrade to B, but again, they didn't have any (I live in a small Gemeinde I guess) so they gave me another L permit and told me that it doesn't matter because in May 2007 they're dropping all the quotas for EU citizens anyway, and that an L permit shouldn't stop me from doing anything.

Well this is certainly encouraging news. It could mean that a lot of these restrictions have been relaxed in the time since we went through them. Your arrival in 2005 could have made all the difference. I know that things have been relaxing because when I applied for my C permit it was just a case of filling in a form and that was it. My ex-girlfriend did it 2 years before and boy did she have to jump through hoops - with the same gemeinde as me. I think the whole EC system has changed, so I presume that you have a decent limit. I had a B permit in the beginning (my company tried to give me an L, but being forewarned I made a scene until they applied for a B) and Credit Suisse would only give me 100 francs/month on my EC - even though I worked for them! That was back in 2000.

I'm glad to hear that L permit holders are no longer the scum of the Earth, mind you - you are an EU citizen, I wonder if non-EU L permit holders are having an easy time of it? Comments anyone?

When you spent 120 days outside of the country, did you deregister before doing so? If not, then technically what you did was illegal, but you would have had to continue paying your Swiss health insurance during this time.

I'd be interested to know if the L permit people pay more car insurance than B or C - because the amount you pay definitely changes according to your nationality - I've tried it myself on www.comparis.ch!

If it doesn't make any difference anymore then why do companies always ask foreigners to state their type of permit on application forms if for no other purpose than to discriminate?

As for the border I'm going to take a wild guess at the fact that you are white? Everyone I know with dark skin has always complained that they are stopped every single time. Mind you - I've always seen the same at customs in Heathrow...Always seems to be dark skinned folks having their bags searched there...

Mark

You are quite right the whole EC system has changed and for the better. You can now have limits in CH of 10K per month and 2K per transaction. Also the 10K can be outside the country. Directly from the bank it is only limited by common sense ie 10K per transaction unless you let them know in advance.
Well actually a non-EU L Permit is what you used to know Mark with no changes other than there is a quota on them and this is bundled with B permits for non-EU people unless they stay less than 4 months...

Well actually that is because it does make a difference if you are not from the EU...

Another interesting thing is coming back from Germany once I got quizzed on the train by the border control (moving Swiss version) and there was a black guy opposite me that got away without a whisper. That said he was daft enough to get off at Basel Badische Bhf so had to go through the customs again and this time there was no escape!!

Afaik, there is no good dim sum in Switzerland...

brilliant!

And the point in resurrecting a 7 year old thread is ...?