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-   -   Renewal of permit denied - what now? (https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-visas-government/212734-renewal-permit-denied-what-now.html)

swisspea 07.07.2014 19:25

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Was it a normal work/residency permit or was she a student for some of that time? Is she earning sufficient money at the moment? When is she being asked to leave the country? Does she have a debt record?

frankieboy 07.07.2014 19:29

What I meant was, she didn't need the RAV or social help but I knew it wasn't gonna look good on a renewal if ever claimed...I just didn't know about the health insurance Prämienverbilligung....which is obviously what the refer to in the letter...they say Prämienverbilligung is not social help but classified under Art. 4Abs. 4 Verordnung Nr. 140/71 (idk what this all is) they have to be handled as "social help"....

And no she does not have any debts at all, paid the bills on time, no crime record....and yes it was a normal residence b permit for self-employed work which obviously she is still doing nowadays...in fact she just completed a new project a week ago.

In the letter they also stated that it was a "Ermessensentscheid der kantonalen Behörde der dem Bundesamt für Migration zur Zustimmung unterbreitet werden muss"

So it's not a "final" decision yet, I hope and that the appeal letter will hopefully change their minds!

idefix 07.07.2014 19:35

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
RAV are not social help and having RAV during your stay here will not influence your permit or citizenship, where as social help is something different. For RAV you need to work at least a year and you are contributing each month into it so makes absolutely no difference if you've used it for your future permit.

I am sure when your girlfriend accepted the premium help on the acceptance form with small fine print letter was written exactly that but who's gonna bother to read all of that...

Samaire13 07.07.2014 19:50

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frankieboy (Post 2193411)
I swear there is nothing else. Even in their letter they only relied on the article where it says that you're not allowed to take help from the state and blah blah...which obviously i knew, that's why i never told her to go to the RAV or claim social help...I just didn't know she wasn't allowed to claim Prämienverbilligung...so, I sent the appeal letter to the office today and really hope that they re-consider all this. I'm devastated otherwise.

Claiming unemployment money doesn't affect the permit status. Social help might. But since neither was used anyway, it doesn't matter. I would be extremely surprised if going for a Prämienverbilligung were the sole reason here. This is very, very strange.

Do you still have that insurance contract? Does it say anything in there about an effect on the permit?

I'm still also very confused about that comment about the marriage. OK maybe that can be looked at as some ignorant comment by one individual rather than a general proper assessment of the situation, but still...

frankieboy 07.07.2014 19:59

The appeal (Gesuch) was filled out online on www.ahvluzern.ch and no there was nothing stating it. She also pays her Persönliche Akontobeiträge through AHV...honestly, if people with permits are not allowed to claim the Prämienverbilligung they shouldn't offer it...it says that any person/family livingin Switzerland and who is insured through KVG can claim it...and if they really "hid" this one point then idk what to think of this country anymore...

And what if we'd get married now and bring the wedding forward? Wouldn't that be looked at as "suspicous" as well...."oooh the permit isn't getting renewed and now they quickly marry"? What if they look at it that way? I'm honestly so confused I don't know what to do anymore.

idefix 07.07.2014 20:04

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frankieboy (Post 2193439)
The appeal (Gesuch) was filled out online on www.ahvluzern.ch and no there was nothing stating it. She also pays her Persönliche Akontobeiträge through AHV...honestly, if people with permits are not allowed to claim the Prämienverbilligung they shouldn't offer it...it says that any person/family livingin Switzerland and who is insured through KVG can claim it...and if they really "hid" this one point then idk what to think of this country anymore...

Just make sure of the conditions BEFORE you sign/claim anything and you'll be fine. You are very dramatic otherwise, Swiss people aren't like that.

Are you sure you are Swiss?

frankieboy 07.07.2014 20:05

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Yeah I am Swiss but my father is Italian so....

k_and_e 07.07.2014 20:16

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
according to 2.1.1 in this document, Prämienverbilligung is not social help

https://www.google.ch/url?sa=t&rct=j...ZF9y9g4U-NfgAA

Fridge 07.07.2014 20:20

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Just go to the Zivilamt and process the civil wedding. I think there's a 2 week waiting period, but once that's done all but the most overzealous rubber stampers will leave her alone.

I don't know the exact legality on it, but it's referred to as the right to family reunification, so being in a legitimate, legally endorsed relationship with a Swiss citizen would pretty much tie their hands. Yes, they may put you though a few spot checks to make things difficult - but if it's actually legitimate, there's nothing to really worry about.

MissCosmopol 07.07.2014 20:22

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frankieboy (Post 2193442)
And what if we'd get married now and bring the wedding forward? Wouldn't that be looked at as "suspicous" as well...."oooh the permit isn't getting renewed and now they quickly marry"? What if they look at it that way? I'm honestly so confused I don't know what to do anymore.

Don't let it get to you. You are of course free to marry (she'd need to hold a valid permit at the time of marriage though if you do it in CH, any which one would do, otherwise go abroad) and I doubt anyone than that one person on the phone thinks anything suspicious of it. The main difference: marry for the permit for the sake of the actual relationship vs marry for the permit for the sake of the permit.

Seeing that the two of you share a home (please say you're both on the lease!) and perhaps even bank accounts, any doubt whatsoever would quickly be put down. Vacation photos of the two of you and invitations etc addressed to you as a couple could be used to verify the nature of your relationship too in a worst case scenario - it's very unlikely that you have anything to fear if you live together. It doesn't change the fact that it feels intrusive and intimidating to have authorities grill you on your private life. :msnshock:

gurahamu89 07.07.2014 20:23

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by k_and_e (Post 2193449)
according to 2.1.1 in this document, Prämienverbilligung is not social help

https://www.google.ch/url?sa=t&rct=j...ZF9y9g4U-NfgAA

It is worth noting though, that the document you linked to is for Zuerich legal affairs. The OP has stated several times they are in Luzern, which in turn have their own passamt and immigrationamt departments with their own sets of procedures and policies etc.

For information pertaining to Luzern, it may be worth trawling this website for information:

http://www.migration.lu.ch/

And to the OP, of course bumping your marriage will look suspicious, but in any case, that leaves it up to you to prove your long term plans to get married - that is that you have been wanting/planning to marry for some time. This can include planning information from wedding stores, documents pertaining to you two's history together, such as bills in a joint name to say you have been together for some time. Basically anything that says you have been together for a long time and that the marriage isn't just a scam to fraudulently avoid the immigration system.

frankieboy 07.07.2014 20:34

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Well luckily we have lots of photo's, vacation stuff, valentines cards, previous marriage venue enquiries etc, so we're going to try and forget what that silly woman said on the phone. But it just felt very offensive! I don't know what their problem is, they must be having a bad year at the office or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurahamu89 (Post 2193457)

And to the OP, of course bumping your marriage will look suspicious, but in any case, that leaves it up to you to prove your long term plans to get married - that is that you have been wanting/planning to marry for some time. This can include planning information from wedding stores, documents pertaining to you two's history together, such as bills in a joint name to say you have been together for some time. Basically anything that says you have been together for a long time and that the marriage isn't just a scam to fraudulently avoid the immigration system.


CH_Me 07.07.2014 20:49

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frankieboy (Post 2193254)
Obviously she does generate an income but she was offered Prämienverbilligung [premium reduction] so she took it - not knowing that it can affect her renewal. Obviously we live together and we don't have any financial problems.

If we knew it affects her renewal then obviously we wouldn't have taken it but we got no information about it. She never took Sozialhilfe [welfare] or RAV benefits so I'm just really surprised about this.

Quote:

Anyway, the letter is off, also stating that we didn't know she wasn't allowed to take the Prämienverbilligung, although they offered it to her. I feel tricked in a way because why offer something when it turns out against you anyway? Maybe it was a sly way for the authorities to get rid of a "foreign" person and still making us pay for all the documents we had to send in.
I would feel tricked too. I've also got those Prämienverbilligung forms and wondered if we qualified when I was the only one working. I almost sent the forms in and still get the forms every year.

martin959 07.07.2014 20:56

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Wait, how much time you need to be living in Switzerland in order to get the citizenship?

(maybe a useless question at this point... :( )

Medea Fleecestealer 07.07.2014 21:08

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by martin959 (Post 2193483)
Wait, how much time you need to be living in Switzerland in order to get the citizenship?

(maybe a useless question at this point... :( )

12 years, coming down to 10 under the new rules recently agreed, but not yet implemented. As she's not a spouse, she can't apply for facilitated naturalisation.

Island Monkey 07.07.2014 21:11

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Getting married here,now she doesn't have a permit, will be a nightmare!

Get some flights booked to Vegas!

frankieboy 07.07.2014 21:11

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Anyway, I was looking through some old documents and when she first got her permit in 2009 they wrote on the letter, that according to the law Art. 62 AuG and Art. 96 Abs. 1 AuG that she will lose her permit if she comes dependent on Sozialhilfe...and it's stated like that under Art. 62 as well...which is fine and understandable...but I never throught that Prämienverbilligung classifies as Sozialhilfe ...just so weird.

Samaire13 07.07.2014 22:37

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Island Monkey (Post 2193495)
Getting married here,now she doesn't have a permit, will be a nightmare!

Jep, that's a real problem now.

It's clearly still unfair and given you seem to have been and lived together for years, it should be obvious to anyone with half a brain cell that this wouldn't be a sham marriage. So generally, I would probably dismiss the comment by that one person and go ahead with the wedding, asap.

However, once her permit expires (when does it exactly?), the situation will be different and that's probably what that person from the authorities was referring to…

I too did some googling on those Prämienverbilligungen and they do seem to qualify as social assistance. I genuinely wasn't aware of that :msnblush: That sort of explains it then...

frankieboy 07.07.2014 22:46

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
It expired in February 2014, they just haven't bothered to inform us sooner, which I think is absolutely not right either. Obviousy her renewal was due before that curb vote...and I remember thinking that I was glad we sent the renewal in before that vote...but was I wrong...they're making a big fuss because she claimed Prämienverbilligung 1 time in her 5 years here!

I googled as well and it made my stomach go sick tbh....I wish I was aware of that fact...I never knew and I am Swiss!!!! For me Sozialhilfe is Sozialhilfe, if you know what I mean?


What a terrible terrible trick tbh....

Anjela 07.07.2014 23:12

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
There's a member here who's had a B permit for five years... originally worked for three months and has apparently been claiming social aid ever since. Not judging, just using it as an example. Their permit is also due for renewal, and I'm wondering how that's going given the recent clamp down on renewals; the powers that be are using what seem on the surface the thinnest of excuses at times to refuse what to most of us seems a simple administrative process.

OP, find out what you need to do to marry in the UK, it's almost certainly the quickest and easiest solution. Then bring her home!
Your girlfriend's main mistake seems to have been allowing her permit to lapse in the first place.


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