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-   -   Renewal of permit denied - what now? (https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-visas-government/212734-renewal-permit-denied-what-now.html)

Samaire13 07.07.2014 23:21

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frankieboy (Post 2193560)
It expired in February 2014, they just haven't bothered to inform us sooner, which I think is absolutely not right either. Obviousy her renewal was due before that curb vote...and I remember thinking that I was glad we sent the renewal in before that vote...but was I wrong...they're making a big fuss because she claimed Prämienverbilligung 2 times in her 5 years here!

I googled as well and it made my stomach go sick tbh....I wish I was aware of that fact...I never knew and I am Swiss!!!! For me Sozialhilfe is Sozialhilfe, if you know what I mean?


What a terrible terrible trick tbh....

It would have had nothing to do with the vote anyway; there's been no implications from that yet and the earliest there might be any will be in three years plus/minus. So chances are it's simply because she claimed what was classified as social welfare.

I am Swiss too and didn't know. And I agree, if it was just one time, it's even more ridiculous.

Since her permit expired months ago, you need to get moving and I agree with the previous poster that you should consider getting married in the UK - but do clarify upfront if there'll be any repercussion from that. I assume she has no permit right now? If so, she can only stay for a limited amount of time. I assume, though, there's some kind of "grace period" as the authorities to give you a feedback for so long, but please check that, I wouldn't risk much right now.

An Expat Wife 08.07.2014 07:22

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
If it helps at all my husband and I were married in Switzerland. He is Swiss and I am English and we were living in London at the time. I had no permits of any kind to live in CH. He was declaring tax etc from UK as at the time as he was living there too.
We got a date at the Zurich office fairly easily. And at the time fairly quickly. We flew over had the civil ceremony with close family went for dinner and flew back to London. Had a wedding ceremony 2 months later in CH at church and again flew back to London.

Medea Fleecestealer 08.07.2014 07:41

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Samaire13 (Post 2193578)
It would have had nothing to do with the vote anyway; there's been no implications from that yet and the earliest there might be any will be in three years plus/minus. So chances are it's simply because she claimed what was classified as social welfare.

Sorry, but there have been implications from that. There have been reports of people who are becoming unemployed not getting their permits renewed, even though in the past this wasn't a problem. I also read on a thread here that when coming as an EU job seeker they're now checking on your financial situation immediately, which also didn't happen before. That used to only happen after the initial 3 months was up and you applied for an extension.

Samaire13 08.07.2014 08:38

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 2193638)
Sorry, but there have been implications from that. There have been reports of people who are becoming unemployed not getting their permits renewed, even though in the past this wasn't a problem. I also read on a thread here that when coming as an EU job seeker they're now checking on your financial situation immediately, which also didn't happen before. That used to only happen after the initial 3 months was up and you applied for an extension.

I'm not sure this is a direct consequence or a coincidence - there's probably always been individual cases where things went differently than they should (or shouldn't) and now they're being blown out of proportion… Officially, there has not been any change yet - after all, they're still discussing how to exactly implement all this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Expat Wife
If it helps at all my husband and I were married in Switzerland. He is Swiss and I am English and we were living in London at the time. I had no permits of any kind to live in CH. He was declaring tax etc from UK as at the time as he was living there too.
We got a date at the Zurich office fairly easily. And at the time fairly quickly. We flew over had the civil ceremony with close family went for dinner and flew back to London. Had a wedding ceremony 2 months later in CH at church and again flew back to London.

As of 2011, that has become substantially more difficult… http://origin.swissinfo.ch/eng/forei...marry/31731948 Not sure if this applies to both EU and non-EU citizens, though.

meloncollie 08.07.2014 08:38

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anjela (Post 2193572)
There's a member here who's ...

One of the things that makes for a degree of confusion here is that even given similar circumstances decisions made in one case are often quite different in another when different cantons and Gemeinden are involved. Just about everything in Switzerland is local, influenced by local attitudes and local bureaucrats. Practices can and do differ between cantons.

Some cantons seem to be more 'generous' than others, some seem to apply a stricter interpretation of the rules.

(A recent Bundesrat proposal to harmonize some practices, seen largely as an attempt to preempt the 9Feb vote, seems to have fallen by the wayside in the interim. Have any of you heard what happened with that?)
---


Frankieboy, do you think offering to pay back the Prämienverbilligung contributions might help your appeal?

I know of one person who did that - but it was Sozialhilfe, and in another canton - so, as above, perhaps not relevant to your situation.

---

Hoping you can work this out.

Medea Fleecestealer 08.07.2014 08:51

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Samaire13 (Post 2193659)
As of 2011, that has become substantially more difficult… http://origin.swissinfo.ch/eng/forei...marry/31731948 Not sure if this applies to both EU and non-EU citizens, though.

Uh? :confused: Reading that I'd say it's made it easier, not harder.

frankieboy 08.07.2014 09:11

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by meloncollie (Post 2193660)
---

Frankieboy, do you think offering to pay back the Prämienverbilligung contributions might help your appeal?

I know of one person who did that - but it was Sozialhilfe, and in another canton - so, as above, perhaps not relevant to your situation.

---

Hoping you can work this out.

Well, I would if they'd offer me the chance to do so. But fact is, it's not even stated in the law to having to pay it back...it's a different story with the Sozialhilfe. I just wonder why they kept sending us the form to fill out for the Prämienverbilligung in the first place, if they knew she was on a B permit?

Fact is a) I didn't know as a Swiss that it counts as social assistance and b) why send us the form in the first place if it's not for tricking us?

I just think it's a big fuss over nothing really and I can't believe they decided to make all this drama when obviously renewing the permit would have been much easier for both parts!

Mrs. Doolittle 08.07.2014 10:13

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frankieboy (Post 2193680)
Well, I would if they'd offer me the chance to do so. But fact is, it's not even stated in the law to having to pay it back...it's a different story with the Sozialhilfe. I just wonder why they kept sending us the form to fill out for the Prämienverbilligung in the first place, if they knew she was on a B permit?

Fact is a) I didn't know as a Swiss that it counts as social assistance and b) why send us the form in the first place if it's not for tricking us?

I just think it's a big fuss over nothing really and I can't believe they decided to make all this drama when obviously renewing the permit would have been much easier for both parts!

They send everyone the form. Whether you qualify and apply depends on your situation. But here the form was sent to your girlfriend, not you.

It sounds as though she has lived with you and perhaps you have paid most of the rent and other living expenses, so she has not really been financially independent, or has she?

As a couple I suspect with your joint income you would not have qualified for the premium assistance.

frankieboy 08.07.2014 10:26

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
I wouldn't say the send everyone the form because I never got it. Maybe it's because I wouldn't qualify anyway with my income which is understandable.

idefix 08.07.2014 10:30

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frankieboy (Post 2193738)
I wouldn't say the send everyone the form because I never got it. Maybe it's because I wouldn't qualify anyway with my income which is understandable.

So basically, your gf doesn't earn enough to live here, she claims government help to pay for her health insurance while you are not helping her with your big income and you wonder why the government wants her out of the country?

frankieboy 08.07.2014 10:40

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Well of course I'm helping her and if I knew that this had any impact on her permit then obviously would have never claimed it!

She got sent that form and she qualified, so what? It's a normal right to everyone who qualifies...and like stated above, she didn't claim it for her entire 5 years.

To me the decision is just very harsh. But thanks everyone for the help anyway. We're just gonna deal with it ourselves now.

idefix 08.07.2014 11:13

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frankieboy (Post 2193753)
Well of course I'm helping her and if I knew that this had any impact on her permit then obviously would have never claimed it!

She got sent that form and she qualified, so what? It's a normal right to everyone who qualifies...and like stated above, she didn't claim it for her entire 5 years.

To me the decision is just very harsh. But thanks everyone for the help anyway. We're just gonna deal with it ourselves now.

You don't seem to help her, she relies on the government to pay her health insurance. You should have done that instead of the government.

Nothing wrong that she claimed help, it's just now she can not stay here as she is not earning enough and not contributing to the society. Nothing wrong there either.

The decision is normal. She should have read the fine print when she signed for the government help.

You have one big earner, another one that doesn't earn enough, living together but cheating the system to profit government help when they don't really need it.

And you wonder why they are kicking her out of the country LOL

:D

MsWorWoo 08.07.2014 11:16

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
So does this count for Subvention for childcare in Zurich too?

st2lemans 08.07.2014 11:21

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 2193779)
You have one big earner, another one that doesn't earn enough, living together but cheating the system to profit government help when they don't really need it.

It's not cheating the system. ;)

After all, the higher earner is paying higher taxes by not being married. :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by abi_bouw (Post 2193783)
So does this count for Subvention for childcare in Zurich too?

Probably, yes.

Tom

frankieboy 08.07.2014 11:23

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 2193779)
You don't seem to help her, she relies on the government to pay her health insurance. You should have done that instead of the government.

Nothing wrong that she claimed help, it's just now she can not stay here as she is not earning enough and not contributing to the society. Nothing wrong there either.

The decision is normal. She should have read the fine print when she signed for the government help.

You have one big earner, another one that doesn't earn enough, living together but cheating the system to profit government help when they don't really need it.

And you wonder why they are kicking her out of the country LOL

:D

Yeah funny isn't it...
And no, she doesn't rely on them, she simply qualified for it, but wasn't relying on it...during the one time she claimed it I was still paying her monthly Prämie for the health insurance and I can prove it by bank statements so no...and why are we cheating the goverment if she was eligable for it?

Guest 08.07.2014 11:37

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frankieboy (Post 2193753)
Well of course I'm helping her and if I knew that this had any impact on her permit then obviously would have never claimed it!

She got sent that form and she qualified, so what? It's a normal right to everyone who qualifies...and like stated above, she didn't claim it for her entire 5 years.

To me the decision is just very harsh. But thanks everyone for the help anyway. We're just gonna deal with it ourselves now.

Was she ever declared as your live-in partner to the authorities and tax authorities as per the law? Really, I am sorry you are going though this- but don't waste energy complaining here on EF, but go and discuss this and ways forward to the authorities concerned- that is the only way. And if necessary your GF will just have to go back to UK for a while, get married there, then come back. It is clear you can afford to pay back the insurance, so you should just explain you didn't realise it amunted to Social Help (although it should be clear, really, sorry! and you could have easily paid it for her if she doesn't work- as you have a good salary it seems)- you need to talk to them, and make amends and help for their support- it might just work. But if she lived with you undeclared as your partner- you may have to do some grovelling. If she has to go back to UK so you can get this sorted out- then the sooner the better, surely.

MsWorWoo 08.07.2014 11:43

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by abi_bouw (Post 2193783)
So does this count for Subvention for childcare in Zurich too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 2193784)

Probably, yes.

Tom

Poo.

st2lemans 08.07.2014 11:46

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Was she ever declared as your live-in partner to the authorities and tax authorities as per the law?
What law? :confused:

Living together has no effect whatsoever on taxes, so why would the tax authorities care?

Tom

MathNut 08.07.2014 11:50

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Wouldn't have been clear to me either, I have to say. So means-tested child care is not "Sozialhilfe" but means-tested health insurance is?

I received a letter telling me I qualified for the same thing a few years ago - also in canton ZH - never took it but only because at the time I couldn't face dealing with any more paperwork in German. I hadn't a clue that it might have affected my permit status.

OP, best of luck with getting it sorted, and thanks for posting about it here, you've kept me and maybe some others from making the same mistake.

MissCosmopol 08.07.2014 11:53

Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 2193779)
You don't seem to help her, she relies on the government to pay her health insurance. You should have done that instead of the government.

Nothing wrong that she claimed help, it's just now she can not stay here as she is not earning enough and not contributing to the society. Nothing wrong there either.

The decision is normal. She should have read the fine print when she signed for the government help.

You have one big earner, another one that doesn't earn enough, living together but cheating the system to profit government help when they don't really need it.

And you wonder why they are kicking her out of the country LOL

:D

how pointless to post such biased "observations" and pretend they're neutral and free from value-judgement. You make it sound like it was a conscious scheme of OP and his fiancé to rip off the government, when in fact several EF'ers have said that they were unaware that prämienverbilligung counts as sozialhilfe. In fact my bf and I filled this form out for me at one point because there was a mix-up with my exemption for my foreign health insurance and I was suddenly on a much more expensive swiss insurance (we never sent it, thankfully, bf just paid my insurance for 6 months until the issue was sorted).

I know a couple of expats in real life who have also gotten the prämienverbilligung, and the fact remains that the status of this support in terms of future immigration-related issues is rather opaque until the moment you're confronted and its too late. This could've happened to many others, including myself.

If someone offers you a cookie and you take it I bet you'd be surprised too if you were asked to pay up an unreasonable cost upon eating it.


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