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  #81  
Old 08.07.2014, 12:54
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Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?

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Wouldn't have been clear to me either, I have to say. So means-tested child care is not "Sozialhilfe" but means-tested health insurance is?

I received a letter telling me I qualified for the same thing a few years ago - also in canton ZH - never took it but only because at the time I couldn't face dealing with any more paperwork in German. I hadn't a clue that it might have affected my permit status.

OP, best of luck with getting it sorted, and thanks for posting about it here, you've kept me and maybe some others from making the same mistake.
Are you sure that subvention isn't socialhelp? It's the same sort of thing right?
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Old 08.07.2014, 13:05
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Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?

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Are you sure that subvention isn't socialhelp? It's the same sort of thing right?
I'm not sure at all. To complicate matters further, it seems that health insurance premium support is not actually social help (see here for example where it seems to say that people who are on one don't qualify for the other) but counts as social help in some ways/for some purposes.

And if child care subsidies are social help, or count as social help in this context, then what about villages like the one where Odile lives (she's posted about it before) where something like two thirds of the cost of child care is borne by the village and canton. If you're a foreigner in that village, you have to pay three times as much as the locals or risk not having your permit renewed?? Seems a bit shabby to say the least. If it is that way, I'd hope they tell you up front because such a thing certainly wouldn't have been self-evident to me.
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  #83  
Old 08.07.2014, 13:16
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Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?

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how pointless to post such biased "observations" and pretend they're neutral and free from value-judgement. You make it sound like it was a conscious scheme of OP and his fiancé to rip off the government, when in fact several EF'ers have said that they were unaware that prämienverbilligung counts as sozialhilfe. In fact my bf and I filled this form out for me at one point because there was a mix-up with my exemption for my foreign health insurance and I was suddenly on a much more expensive swiss insurance (we never sent it, thankfully, bf just paid my insurance for 6 months until the issue was sorted).

I know a couple of expats in real life who have also gotten the prämienverbilligung, and the fact remains that the status of this support in terms of future immigration-related issues is rather opaque until the moment you're confronted and its too late. This could've happened to many others, including myself.

If someone offers you a cookie and you take it I bet you'd be surprised too if you were asked to pay up an unreasonable cost upon eating it.
There is no free lunch in life and I would always ask the cost of the cookie IN ADVANCE before i eat it. Simples.

People go ahead with signing stuff they don't entirely read, get into contracts etc claim help etc without asking for the consequences first. You are stupid for doing that and you can't say "sorry I didn't know it was like that" after. Though luck, that's why you are grown up and you make your own decisions, check the fine print before and if you do f up, you live with the consequences.

Playing stupid doesn't cut it.

If OP goes to the government now to contest the decision he's gonna get into a real trouble for claiming benefits while living together with sufficient income for the couple. THAN it's gonna get real nasty, if you think kicking her out of the country is bad, wait for that...
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  #84  
Old 08.07.2014, 13:25
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Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?

For childcare it depends on area/C/kanton. Here childcare subsidies are for all- so not considered as Social Help. Surely if reduction of Medical Insurance premiums was not Social Help (due to low wage) then eveyone would be claiming, no? Fact is, although it makes no difference perhaps with tax, as the person is the dependent of someone with a decent wage- she was not entitled to the subsidy anyhow- she was only offered it as it was not clear she is a dependent on a high wage earner (so seen as 'fraud' now). As said, OP has to go and discuss this with the authorities asap and try and sort this mess out- little any of us on EF can do.

Last edited by Odile; 08.07.2014 at 13:42.
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Old 08.07.2014, 13:27
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Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?

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There is no free lunch in life and I would always ask the cost of the cookie IN ADVANCE before i eat it. Simples.

People go ahead with signing stuff they don't entirely read, get into contracts etc claim help etc without asking for the consequences first. You are stupid for doing that and you can't say "sorry I didn't know it was like that" after. Though luck, that's why you are grown up and you make your own decisions, check the fine print before and if you do f up, you live with the consequences.

Playing stupid doesn't cut it.

If OP goes to the government now to contest the decision he's gonna get into a real trouble for claiming benefits while living together with sufficient income for the couple. THAN it's gonna get real nasty, if you think kicking her out of the country is bad, wait for that...

You're spouting a whole load of sh*t.


Why would his income be legally applicable to her living scenario? They're not married and she's not a dependent of his. Legally, they're roommates.
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Old 08.07.2014, 13:34
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Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?

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Was she ever declared as your live-in partner to the authorities and tax authorities as per the law?
This is what I was going to ask, or rather I was going to state that it seems the authorities doesn't know that she is living with you and that you are responsible for her financial gap. If you two were married she would not have qualified for the subsidized health insurance so it wouldn't be an issue.

If you haven't done this yet, you need to go down to the commune (or equivalent) and fill out the papers that state that you will be financially responsible for her and get the "concubine" permit.

Just be aware that if you break up you may well still be financially responsible for her.


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You're spouting a whole load of sh*t.


Why would his income be legally applicable to her living scenario? They're not married and she's not a dependent of his. Legally, they're roommates.
Right. And in this case it's a problem as she alone doesn't make enough money. If they were married or if they had the "concubine" permit she wouldn't be in this mess, is my guess.
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Old 08.07.2014, 13:40
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Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?

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Right. And in this case it's a problem as she alone doesn't make enough money. If they were married or if they had the "concubine" permit she wouldn't be in this mess, is my guess.
Yes, sounds like it.
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Old 08.07.2014, 13:49
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Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?

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There is no free lunch in life and I would always ask the cost of the cookie IN ADVANCE before i eat it. Simples.

People go ahead with signing stuff they don't entirely read, get into contracts etc claim help etc without asking for the consequences first. You are stupid for doing that and you can't say "sorry I didn't know it was like that" after. Though luck, that's why you are grown up and you make your own decisions, check the fine print before and if you do f up, you live with the consequences.

Playing stupid doesn't cut it.

If OP goes to the government now to contest the decision he's gonna get into a real trouble for claiming benefits while living together with sufficient income for the couple. THAN it's gonna get real nasty, if you think kicking her out of the country is bad, wait for that...
the views you represent are exactly what legitimates and feeds these systems that are continuously growing more and more impossible for regular citizens to comprehend. Do you read every terms and agreement you ever sign? If you do, you'd likely find that it would take you on average one whole month out of every work year. So I'm calling your bluff. It the system something is wrong with, not the people using it.

Idefix, you sound like you could need a hug. I won't even charge you.

OP, don't bother listening to this bunch of hoo-haa!
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Old 08.07.2014, 13:53
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You're spouting a whole load of sh*t.


Why would his income be legally applicable to her living scenario? They're not married and she's not a dependent of his. Legally, they're roommates.
Because they have been living together as a couple (but this hasn't been registered) and their income would have been taken as 1, not separate, so she wouldn't have been able to claim the benefits. Instead, she showed that she lived on her own, she couldn't make a living and got benefits for her health insurance, but the reality is her boyfriend/spouse etc that they live together is making more than enough so she would never got those benefits in the first place.

So now, if they continue contesting the decision they will get into a lot more trouble.

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the views you represent are exactly what legitimates and feeds these systems that are continuously growing more and more impossible for regular citizens to comprehend. Do you read every terms and agreement you ever sign? If you do, you'd likely find that it would take you on average one whole month out of every work year. So I'm calling your bluff. It the system something is wrong with, not the people using it.

Idefix, you sound like you could need a hug. I won't even charge you.

OP, don't bother listening to this bunch of hoo-haa!
Yes I read all of them, ask the most important questions before hand and if I screw up I won't complain etc

The system is not wrong, the people are always the problem, because they don't take the time to find out what they are going into...

Is it really a free hug? I'd like a written note before hand

Last edited by 3Wishes; 08.07.2014 at 15:10. Reason: merging successive posts
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Old 08.07.2014, 13:57
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Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?

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… If you two were married she would not have qualified for the subsidized health insurance so it wouldn't be an issue.

If you haven't done this yet, you need to go down to the commune (or equivalent) and fill out the papers that state that you will be financially responsible for her and get the "concubine" permit.
True! Just want to chime in and say that the concubine permit isn't necessarily a very good option if they're already certain they want to marry. We've been looking into getting me one, and in Bern a concubine permit means that you're not allowed to take work, only allowed to search for jobs. Only if the job you find can grant you an independent permit can you get it. In other words: in my case, I wouldn't be able to work for less than 2500 a month, which then brings you back to the same old L or B permit depending on the contract.

Plus you'll have to provide an explanation of why you can't/won't marry to authorities. I'm not sure if this can return to haunt you in case you want to marry a short while after if the concubine permit is not working out. That's basically our worry about it.
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Old 08.07.2014, 14:12
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Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?

I know some will think I'm just tauting for business, which I am truly not as this is not my field of expertise at all! BUT there seems to either be: a) more to the story, which I understand can't and shouldn't all be posted online in a public forum or b) an error on behalf of the authorities..

It is my simplistic understanding that the "Krankenkassenprämienverbilligung" (contribution to your mandatory healthcare) is NOT qualified as "Sozialhilfe" or social benefits. Receiving social benefits can affect your permit status but the Swiss Federal Court did rule that the "prämienverbilligung" doesn't apply..

"Ergänzungsleistungen und Krankenkassenprämienverbilligungen fallen

ausländerrechtlich nicht unter den Begriff der Sozialhilfe (BGE 135 II 265 E. 3.7)" - Weisung und Erläuterungen zum Ausländerrecht, Bundesamt für Migration.

Good luck.. I hope you find a resolution, but it does seem like this may be a case to ask an expert..
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Old 08.07.2014, 14:15
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Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?

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Because they have been living together as a couple (but this hasn't been registered) and their income would have been taken as 1, not separate,
It's only considered as one if you are married.

Living together makes no difference.

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Old 08.07.2014, 14:19
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Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?

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Uh? Reading that I'd say it's made it easier, not harder.


It's misleading as it quotes an exception/case that claimed it was "violating human rights" (no comment about that), but the actual new ruling that - afaik - applies is this:

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Revision des Eherechts

Am 1. Januar 2011 ist eine Revision des Schweizer Eherechts in Kraftgetreten. Die neuen Vorschriften sollen verhindern, dass Ehen mit Ausländern geschlossen werden, die sich rechtswidrig in der Schweiz aufhalten. Dazu haben die Zivilstandsbehörden einen Zugriff auf Daten der Migrationsbehörden erhalten und sind verpflichtet, Heiratswillige, die ihren rechtmässigen Aufenthalt in der Schweiz nicht nachweisen können, der zuständigen Ausländerbehörde zu melden.

http://www.nzz.ch/finanzen/uebersich...tar-1.17675142
At the very least, gf needs an L permit to get married.

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Ist der ausländische Partner als Tourist in die Schweiz eingereist und beschliesst das Paar, noch während des Ferienaufenthalts zu heiraten, ist Eile geboten: Nach drei Monaten muss der Gast wieder ausreisen.
Um dem Zwang zur Ausreise vorzubeugen, kann der ausländische Partner spä­testens 14 Tage vor Ablauf des Touristen­visums beim Migrationsamt ein Gesuch um eine Kurzaufenthaltsbewilligung zwecks Vorbereitung der Heirat stellen. Diese Bewilligung wird jedoch nur erteilt, wenn die Ehevorbereitungen bereits so weit fort­geschritten sind, dass innerhalb einer vernünftigen Frist mit einer Heirat zu rechnen ist. Andernfalls wird das Gesuch verweigert, und der Partner muss ausreisen. In diesem Fall muss das Brautpaar unbedingt darauf achten, dass die Ausreisefrist ein­gehalten wird, andernfalls droht eine ­Sperre bei der Wiedereinreise.

http://www.beobachter.ch/justiz-beho...enzen/#c353167
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Old 08.07.2014, 14:26
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Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?

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Just make sure of the conditions BEFORE you sign/claim anything and you'll be fine. You are very dramatic otherwise, Swiss people aren't like that.



Are you sure you are Swiss?

Interesting thread and I was wondering that myself.

OP, just get married. Love conquers all! Even the Swiss government lets "love" make things easier.

Seriously, all the best and sorry you have to go through this but the marriage should fix it.

Dan
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Old 08.07.2014, 14:34
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Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?

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What law?

Living together has no effect whatsoever on taxes, so why would the tax authorities care?

Tom
Yes. I forgot to delete the "as per law" bit. Good catch.

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True! Just want to chime in and say that the concubine permit isn't necessarily a very good option if they're already certain they want to marry. We've been looking into getting me one, and in Bern a concubine permit means that you're not allowed to take work, only allowed to search for jobs. Only if the job you find can grant you an independent permit can you get it. In other words: in my case, I wouldn't be able to work for less than 2500 a month, which then brings you back to the same old L or B permit depending on the contract.

Plus you'll have to provide an explanation of why you can't/won't marry to authorities. I'm not sure if this can return to haunt you in case you want to marry a short while after if the concubine permit is not working out. That's basically our worry about it.

Sorry. But if you are an EU citizen then it doesn't matter. They just update the permit. It's just a formality.
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Old 08.07.2014, 14:41
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Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?

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There is no free lunch in life and I would always ask the cost of the cookie IN ADVANCE before i eat it. Simples....
Sounds so simple, but sometimes it's not. Just look at the advice on this Forum. Even with our members that are lawyers it seems there's conflicting information as to whether the health insurance assistance counts as "social help." How's a joe schmo like me supposed to know?

I sort of get your point, in that if OP's girlfriend really didn't need the help she shouldn't have accepted it. Okay, too late now. So what's the best solution?

OP says she accepted help one time. If we take the most basic assumption, that means help for one month? So perhaps a max of 350 CHF if the government covered the whole cost? The idea that the authorities are threatening deportation for about 350 Francs is just mind-boggling. Agree with a previous poster about trying to pay back the help received. It may help with the appeal process.

Good luck, OP, and keep us posted on your appeal.
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Old 08.07.2014, 14:48
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Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?

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OP says she accepted help one time. If we take the most basic assumption, that means help for one month? So perhaps a max of 350 CHF if the government covered the whole cost? The idea that the authorities are threatening deportation for about 350 Francs is just mind-boggling.
That's why I've been saying and still can't help thinking: it doesn't make sense, there must be more to this story. A few hundred $$, claimed ages ago and now this? I don't know, it just doesn't make sense.

I agree with this:

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BUT there seems to either be: a) more to the story, which I understand can't and shouldn't all be posted online in a public forum or b) an error on behalf of the authorities..
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Old 08.07.2014, 14:50
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Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?

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It's misleading as it quotes an exception/case that claimed it was "violating human rights" (no comment about that), but the actual new ruling that - afaik - applies is this:



At the very least, gf needs an L permit to get married.
However, as long is the case of the lady is question is still being reviewed, her Aufenthalt is rechtmässig. The OP and she can go ahead and get married. The devil is in the details here though - I have no idea which documents the Zivilstadtamt will need from her and how long it will take to get them.
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Old 08.07.2014, 14:52
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Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?

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However, as long is the case of the lady is question is still being reviewed, her Aufenthalt is rechtmässig. The OP and she can go ahead and get married. The devil is in the details here though - I have no idea which documents the Zivilstadtamt will need from her and how long it will take to get them.
That's why I asked several pages ago as to what her current permit status is (I think that's still unanswered or I may just have missed it), but also assumed that she was probably on some kind of grace period - which for sure won't last forever. If her permit ran out in February - six months ago - I don't think there's an awful lot of time left for OP and gf to get things sorted.
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Old 08.07.2014, 14:53
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Re: Renewal of permit denied - what now?

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Because they have been living together as a couple (but this hasn't been registered) and their income would have been taken as 1, not separate, so she wouldn't have been able to claim the benefits. Instead, she showed that she lived on her own, she couldn't make a living and got benefits for her health insurance, but the reality is her boyfriend/spouse etc that they live together is making more than enough so she would never got those benefits in the first place.

So now, if they continue contesting the decision they will get into a lot more trouble.
Citation? I know several couples that have been living together for years and are required to submit separate tax declarations because they're not married.

I kind of suspect you're taking whichever legal environment you're from and transposing it over the Swiss one. It doesn't work like that.
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