English Forum Switzerland

English Forum Switzerland (https://www.englishforum.ch/forum.php)
-   Permits/visas/government (https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-visas-government/)
-   -   Renewal of permit denied - what now? (https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-visas-government/212734-renewal-permit-denied-what-now.html)

frankieboy 07.07.2014 15:58

Renewal of permit denied - what now?
 
Hello English Forum,


I'm feeling a bit drained after some news I received today. I want to keep this as simple as possible.


My British girlfriend who has been living here in Switzerland for 5 years on her B Permit, received a letter today saying that she had been declined for a C Permit. The reasons cited for the refusal were that she didn't earn enough money here and also the fact that she had recieved some support towards her health care insurance payments.


I'm Swiss by the way. We were hoping to get married soon.


Of course, we are appealing and have written back to the immigration promising that she won't use anymore support for health insurance (she only had help for one year anyway. Her earnings have been very up and down, she has a seasonal job.)


What should we expect now? I don't want her to have to leave. Switzerland. I also have a steady job set up here and we maintain a nice home.


We have considered bringing forward our wedding, and when I called the Immigration Office after we receieved the letter, I asked what the procedure would be if we brought it forward, and the woman said that it was suspicious we were going to start planning a wedding after receiving this news. (Although, 2 months ago we informed them that we were going to be getting married in 2015, on her visa renewal form, so it's not like this is an impulsive decision.)


Where to go from here? Any advice appreciated.


Thanks

3Wishes 07.07.2014 16:02

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Welcome to the Forum. As far as I know, a denial of a C-permit doesn't mean she has to leave the country (as she is an EU citizen she can stay here as long as she can support herself). It just means she doesn't get permanent residence yet. Did they not issue her with another 1-year B instead?

frankieboy 07.07.2014 16:04

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Hi

Thanks for your reply.

She got a letter of "Gewährung des rechtlichen Gehörs" [granting of the right to be heard]today where they're basically stating a "Vorgesehene Massnahme" - Widerruf der Aufenthaltsbewilligung und Wegweisung aus der Schweiz! [Proposed action" - Withdrawal of residence permit and removal from Switzerland]

Basically they're planning to send her out of the country just for that one reason that she was depending on some health care insurance payments.

rob1 07.07.2014 16:08

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
You dont mention which canton she lives in... luzern? or wouldnt happen to be AG ?

frankieboy 07.07.2014 16:10

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Ah sorry...she lives in Luzern with me.

nanners 07.07.2014 16:13

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
That sounds really odd. Perhaps you should call them? I know people who have gotten their B extended, or even C, after far more governmental support than that. Good luck.

frankieboy 07.07.2014 16:16

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
I know it sounds odd but I feel very confused by the whole thing. I tried calling them but they couldn't give any more information as they're waiting for our "appeal letter" to arrive that I'll send off today.

Medea Fleecestealer 07.07.2014 16:16

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Short of bringing the marriage forward, you could apply for either a fiancé or concubine permit for her. Here's Vaud's info on concubinage.

http://www.vd.ch/themes/vie-privee/p...s-du-concubin/

Ask at your canton migration office about these permits and see what they say. If they're that opposed to any possibilities, then she'll just have to go back to the UK until you get married. If you truly love each other, a few months apart won't hurt. It's hard, but this is a consequence of the recent vote to curb immigration. Rules that weren't being enforced before now are.

Aleydis 07.07.2014 16:19

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Ultimately, who pays for her living costs?

frankieboy 07.07.2014 16:23

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Obviously she does generate an income but she was offered Prämienverbilligung [premium reduction] so she took it - not knowing that it can affect her renewal. Obviously we live together and we don't have any financial problems.

If we knew it affects her renewal then obviously we wouldn't have taken it but we got no information about it. She never took Sozialhilfe [welfare] or RAV benefits so I'm just really surprised about this.

porsch1909 07.07.2014 16:28

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Sounds a bit peculiar to be honest. If she was refused for a C permit she should have gotten another B or an L worst case.

frankieboy 07.07.2014 16:38

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
And as a little note to the side; we've been dealing with this matter since February 2014 when her visa expired. We sent in all the required documents on time and they kept sending us more documents to fill out, we had to send in her income statements, proof that there are no police records etc. and it has taken them til today to send us this negative letter. I am just very upset because it doesn't seem right and fair.

Aleydis 07.07.2014 16:38

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frankieboy (Post 2193254)
Obviously she does generate an income but she was offered Prämienverbilligung [premium reduction] so she took it - not knowing that it can affect her renewal. Obviously we live together and we don't have any financial problems.

If we knew it affects her renewal then obviously we wouldn't have taken it but we got no information about it. She never took Sozialhilfe [welfare] or RAV benefits so I'm just really surprised about this.

"... we live together and we don't have any financial problems."

In my humble opinion this should be the key argument of your appeal letter, with emphasis on WE. Supporting (financial) documents of both attached, etc. Perhaps you know someone who could write or at least proofread the letter for you?

Best of luck to you.

chomp 07.07.2014 16:40

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
What type of British national is she?

If the passport is not endorsed as 'British Citizen' under 'Nationality,' then different immigration regulations can apply, such as not benefiting from certain provisions of the freedom of movement. I.e., is she a British Oversees Territories Citizen etc.?

adrianlondon 07.07.2014 16:41

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Police records? Something is wrong; police records aren't needed for EU people on B permits. Is she currently not working and in fact they're automatically applying for some kind of visa to allow her to stay as your partner? I agree with almost everyone else in this thread who's said something sounds odd about your case.

Just appeal, ask for a standard B or C permit, and relax.

frankieboy 07.07.2014 16:45

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
She's from england. we were shocked as well about the amount of info they needed, it sounded weird to us and that's why i've posted on here today, to see if anyone could shed some light on it.

roegner 07.07.2014 16:55

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
You write that you already stated "on her visa renewal form" that you will get married next year and that February 2014 her visa expired. I never heard that a British citizen needs a visa for Switzerland?

Shorrick Mk2 07.07.2014 16:57

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frankieboy (Post 2193269)
And as a little note to the side; we've been dealing with this matter since February 2014 when her visa expired. We sent in all the required documents on time and they kept sending us more documents to fill out, we had to send in her income statements, proof that there are no police records etc. and it has taken them til today to send us this negative letter. I am just very upset because it doesn't seem right and fair.


What do you mean by "her visa expired"?

EU nationals don't require a visa to stay in Switzerland.

Island Monkey 07.07.2014 16:58

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Does she have a work contract? If yes, then she is entitled to an L or B permit!

I don't know the answer but I do feel for you... Permit issues drive me to distraction!

frankieboy 07.07.2014 17:00

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Sorry, by visa I meant her B permit! B permit expired in February after 5 years! We got sent an automatic renewal letter for a C-permit and it got denied as of today.

She wasn't even offered another B permit or anything, eventhough she is registered as self-employed here...I don't understand.

porsch1909 07.07.2014 17:00

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by roegner (Post 2193294)
You write that you already stated "on her visa renewal form" that you will get married next year and that February 2014 her visa expired. I never heard that a British citizen needs a visa for Switzerland?

It's obviously just a translation issue. The OP has already said he's Swiss and thus not a native English speaker and we all know he means permit so why press on the issue?

Guest 07.07.2014 17:10

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frankieboy (Post 2193254)
Obviously she does generate an income but she was offered Prämienverbilligung [premium reduction] so she took it

Which is why she has been refused a permit...

If you are from the EU you can get a permit and stay here as long as you can support yourself, or have someone supporting you...

Apparently she can't support herself, otherwise she wouldn't have needed Prämienverbilligung.

She can visit 90 days in any 180 without a permit.

You can apply again for another permit...

Or maybe the appeal will be successful.

Maybe she just visits until you get married?

gurahamu89 07.07.2014 17:10

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Just a quick note, as an expat, you will no doubt be expected to be able to support yourself fully. As you and your girlfriend are not yet married, you are not legally linked together. If they gave her a permit and then you split up (not saying it will or anything like that - but if you did split), then the government would have a lot of hassle dealing with it - and ergo would no doubt have to support a single woman who is unmarried and not a national of their country.

You see the dilemma here? If your girlfriend has had no reliable job for the last years of her B permit, has taken welfare help, and basically is relying on you when you're not married - there is absolutely no legal stability for them to base the decision on, as there isn't the best history to back up the application.

The best thing she could do if they do withdraw her permit is to go back to her homeland for just 1 month (you go with her and make a holiday of it if possible), then she would be allowed to come back for another three months to find a job or work temp while also looking for permanent. The moment your partner can prove she doesn't need help any longer from anybody (that she can stand on her own two feet), I have no doubt the swiss authorities in Luzern would hand her a new B permit and eventually a C permit.

You could either do the above, or simply just move your marriage forward - when you're married they can't refuse a B permit because of family reconciliation clauses within international laws. It will then become accepted that you should support your wife, and your income will then be counted too.


Whatever happens, I wish you good luck and hope you come out of all this standing!

sinbad 07.07.2014 17:29

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
maybe she is a british muslim/

frankieboy 07.07.2014 17:32

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Thanks for all the advices so far guys.

No, she's not muslim. Her family are english protestant.

Island Monkey 07.07.2014 17:36

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
The best think for her to do is get a job, if that's possible.

Medea Fleecestealer 07.07.2014 17:37

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
I think it's more that she's not been earning enough, although the health issue certainly didn't help. But as a self-employed person she's got to be able to earn enough to live on. If she hasn't been doing that I'm not surprised the permit has been denied.

Another way out of it of course, is for her to find a full time job here, then there would be no problem.

MissCosmopol 07.07.2014 17:44

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Am I the only one appalled at the fact that someone from the immigration authorities have told OP that getting married would be a very "suspicious move" given the "news"?! :mad::confused:What an ass. The relationship described is totally legitimate and the comment as OP recounts it insinuates that the couple are frauds, planning a scam marriage.

Besides that… I'm out of bounds here on the legal aspect of your girlfriends stay here, but I'd probably give up fighting the Swiss system, go to England and have a civil ceremony, come back married and have your "real" wedding as planned in 2015.

I'm EU and this sounds pretty scary to me.

frankieboy 07.07.2014 17:54

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MissCosmopol (Post 2193339)
Am I the only one appalled at the fact that someone from the immigration authorities have told OP that getting married would be a very "suspicious move" given the "news"?! :mad::confused:What an ass. The relationship described is totally legitimate and the comment as OP recounts it insinuates that the couple are frauds, planning a scam marriage.

Besides that… I'm out of bounds here on the legal aspect of your girlfriends stay here, but I'd probably give up fighting the Swiss system, go to England and have a civil ceremony, come back married and have your "real" wedding as planned in 2015.

I'm EU and this sounds pretty scary to me.

Thank you so much for your kind words.

We were also appalled that the immigration would say such a thing. We have made a life together and love each other very much. A wedding has been on the cards now for a long time.

My girlfriend has tried very hard in Switzerland to make her career work, so it's for sure not from a lack of trying. As I said, her line of work is seasonal, sometimes she's earning quite a bit and at other times she isn't.

We are very much considering just going to Gretna Green in Scotland or something and getting married.

Island Monkey 07.07.2014 17:58

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frankieboy (Post 2193349)
We are very much considering just going to Gretna Green in Scotland or something and getting married.

There is a residence requirement to getting married in the UK. Gretna is not as easy as it once was! Easiest is Gibraltar, no residence requirement and hardly any documentation needed! I considered it when the authorities here were making my life difficult! Good luck!

martin959 07.07.2014 18:04

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 2193335)
I think it's more that she's not been earning enough, although the health issue certainly didn't help. But as a self-employed person she's got to be able to earn enough to live on. If she hasn't been doing that I'm not surprised the permit has been denied.

Another way out of it of course, is for her to find a full time job here, then there would be no problem.

:P Define, "not enough" :P

Less than 100.000 chf per year? :rolleyes:

Jaceq 07.07.2014 18:10

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Not enough is below EF standard (that is 120k / year) ;)

martin959 07.07.2014 18:16

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaceq (Post 2193361)
Not enough is below EF standard (that is 120k / year) ;)

xD if you cant afford the cheapest Ferrari every year, then you are "poor"


And, "shame on you"... :p

3Wishes 07.07.2014 18:24

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by martin959 (Post 2193355)
:P Define, "not enough" :P

Less than 100.000 chf per year? :rolleyes:

I realize with your :P you're trying to be funny, but maybe it's not clear to OP how much his girlfriend needs to earn to get approved and stay.

I don't know the rules for self-employed, but for people wanting to bring others as dependents a figure often seen here on EF is 100 CHF/day. Perhaps the girlfriend's irregular income combined with the insurance help has the authorities concerned.

What I don't get is why they would send her a C-permit application, sit on it for 5 months, ask for all sorts of stuff that EU citizens usually don't need to provide, and then deny the app and threaten to deport. :confused: No wonder OP is upset!

frankieboy 07.07.2014 18:34

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 3Wishes (Post 2193371)

What I don't get is why they would send her a C-permit application, sit on it for 5 months, ask for all sorts of stuff that EU citizens usually don't need to provide, and then deny the app and threaten to deport. :confused: No wonder OP is upset!

Thank you!!!!
I wondered that too! I thought "wow they're considering her for an early c permit" and obviously we had to send in a lot of documentation which we provided on time and yet they're still refusing.

Anyway, the letter is off, also stating that we didn't know she wasn't allowed to take the Prämienverbilligung, although they offered it to her. I feel tricked in a way because why offer something when it turns out against you anyway? Maybe it was a sly way for the authorities to get rid of a "foreign" person and still making us pay for all the documents we had to send in.

Medea Fleecestealer 07.07.2014 18:35

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Presumably because when she applied for the original B permit, none of this had come up. As an EU it's usually automatic to transfer to a C so that's why they sent the form. Then did some checking, asked for documents, did more checking and made their decision based on what they found out.

Seasonal work of any kind isn't likely to earn enough to live here full time I wouldn't think. She needs to look at what else she can do and find full time employment. She can always go back to her previous job after she's married.

frankieboy 07.07.2014 19:01

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
I am just absolutely shocked how they can just take away someone's life like that! It's not like she has committed any crime here...I understand about the Prämienverbilligung but they surely could have told us that it would affect her future permit?

It's not like she was on the RAV or Sozialhilfe...I just don't know what to say, I am speechless...

Samaire13 07.07.2014 19:15

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Sorry, but something's off here. Is there something else to the story? Denying a C permit is one thing - that is sort of understandable and even if it weren't, there's no general entitlement to a C, so it may be denied for a variety of reasons. But withdrawing a B permit, from an EU/EFTA citizen who has sufficient fundings to support herself (even if through you), who lives with a Swiss and has been working here for five years, and then even adding that a "marriage would be suspicious" - that is all more than just a little odd. I highly doubt it's just because of that insurance thing, there must be another reason.

If there's really nothing else that you're just not telling us (or she's not telling you?), then I would recommend to inquire further with the migration office (the federal one) as to why this happened etc.

Island Monkey 07.07.2014 19:16

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frankieboy (Post 2193398)
I am just absolutely shocked how they can just take away someone's life like that! It's not like she has committed any crime here...I understand about the Prämienverbilligung but they surely could have told us that it would affect her future permit?

It's not like she was on the RAV or Sozialhilfe...I just don't know what to say, I am speechless...

Welcome to the Aüslander world ;) "you guys" voted to kick us all out recently :msnmad:

…. I have noticed recently, they are really cracking down on permits, questioning things that were never before questioned!

frankieboy 07.07.2014 19:19

Re: Renewel of permit denied - what now?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Samaire13 (Post 2193407)
Sorry, but something's off here. Is there something else to the story? Denying a C permit is one thing - that is sort of understandable and even if it weren't, there's no general entitlement to a C, so it may be denied for a variety of reasons. But withdrawing a B permit, from an EU/EFTA citizen who has sufficient fundings to support herself (even if through you), who lives with a Swiss and has been working here for five years, and then even adding that a "marriage would be suspicious" - that is all more than just a little odd.

If there's really nothing else that you're just not telling us (or she's not telling you?), then I would recommend to inquire further with the migration office (the federal one) as to why this happened etc.

I swear there is nothing else. Even in their letter they only relied on the article where it says that you're not allowed to take help from the state and blah blah...which obviously i knew, that's why i never told her to go to the RAV or claim social help...I just didn't know she wasn't allowed to claim Prämienverbilligung...so, I sent the appeal letter to the office today and really hope that they re-consider all this. I'm devastated otherwise.


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:49.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0