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Old 02.11.2006, 15:21
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C-Permit - language test?

Another C Permit question if I may.

Has anyone heard of a rule requiring proof of German Language?

My girlfriend is Polish, just got the application for the C permit and has to submit evidence of German - preferably an exam certificate. Does such a rule only apply to "2nd class" EU states and rest of world?

I'll let you know how the application proceeds....
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Old 02.11.2006, 15:35
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Re: Its nearly five years...[getting a C permit]

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submit evidence of German -
.
Bit messed up that!
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Old 03.11.2006, 15:09
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Re: Its nearly five years...[getting a C permit]

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Has anyone heard of a rule requiring proof of German Language?
I split this post off from the previous thread about getting a C-permit because I thought it would probably be a discussion on its own. I recall we did discuss some of the issues surrounding the language test on that thread - but I think we also went into a bit of detail on the thread about facilitated naturalisation (not applicable to your girlfriend, but the language test parts might be the same).

Anyway, a quick summary as I'm sure a discussion might pop up here.

I have heard that there is a language test, however I was never asked to do one when I got my C permit. Other people I know weren't asked to do one either.

However, like many things in Switzerland, whether or not this is done might simply be down to whether the staff at the local community office were even aware of the procedure, or if they were - whether they decided that wanted to do it.

I'm not aware of whether the "second class" EU states are singled out for special treatment when it comes to the language test. Perhaps a call to the Migrationsamt (dept of Migration) might clear it up?

I checked on their website (yes, German only for immigrants I'm afraid) and found this page. It says yes, they are recongnised but because of a supposed "check of the labour market" special rules apply to them in terms of quotas until 2011. I could find no information about the C-Permit or any language test. I looked through the various articles at admin.ch, but couldn't find anything specifically which referenced the procedures for applying for a C-permit. I also checked around a bit more on the Zurich Migrationsamt website - no information.

Maybe they figure if you are already reading the German text then there's no need for a test

Did anyone else (in the last few years) have to sit a test to get their C-permit?

It's also worth pointing out that if there is a test, it has to be in one of the official languages of Switzerland. Despite what some people might think - Swiss-German is not one of those official languages. So she should have no fear that she will be tested in Swiss-German (if it happens, she would have every right to insist that the examiner speak High-German).
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Old 03.11.2006, 15:11
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Re: Its nearly five years...[getting a C permit]

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My girlfriend is Polish, just got the application for the C permit and has to submit evidence of German - preferably an exam certificate. Does such a rule only apply to "2nd class" EU states and rest of world?
Just noticed the exam certificate thing again. My advice - submit the form, correctly filled out and "forget" about that part. Send it in - it will probably come back with the C-permit.
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Old 03.11.2006, 15:22
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Re: C-Permit - language test?

First I've heard of a language test. When I got my C permit I just sent the form in along with my old B permit and got the C permit in return. This was about seven years ago now so the rules may have changed.
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Old 03.11.2006, 15:37
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Re: Its nearly five years...[getting a C permit]

Quote:
Another C Permit question if I may.

Has anyone heard of a rule requiring proof of German Language?

My girlfriend is Polish, just got the application for the C permit and has to submit evidence of German - preferably an exam certificate. Does such a rule only apply to "2nd class" EU states and rest of world?

I'll let you know how the application proceeds....
When I got mine about a year and a half back there was absolutely no mention of having to prove proficiency in German (luckily!).

In fact, it was the one and only time when someone in the local Fremdenpolizei office actually spoke any English with me.

I suspect that this is another example of how a different set of rules apply to people from outside the club of 'good' (ie Western) countries.


Gav
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Old 03.11.2006, 22:56
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Re: Its nearly five years...[getting a C permit]

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It's also worth pointing out that if there is a test, it has to be in one of the official languages of Switzerland. Despite what some people might think - Swiss-German is not one of those official languages. So she should have no fear that she will be tested in Swiss-German (if it happens, she would have every right to insist that the examiner speak High-German).
Looks like I mis-lead you guys - and I am sorry for that. She does not have to sit a test, but must submit evidence of her speaking German, they have asked her for certificates for tests already sat. Today, we also discovered another Polish person got the same requirement this year. As he had no German certificates he got a letter from his boss that said his German was fine. And yes he got the C. Sadly, that is not an option for my girlfriend, as her boss is a German and would not put his name to bare face lies.

She has tried the migros on-line test and passed the A2 level (this is the minimum requirement specified) - some kind of European-wide standard I understand. So next week she will go take the exam officially.

I should also have mentioned - I forgot this part - that this year is actually her sixth. Last year she got turned down for the C and did not get asked for any evidence of German skills. The reason was that her first year was on an L and not a B.
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Old 04.11.2006, 07:52
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Re: C-Permit - language test?

I don't find it unreasonable that local language skills be required for a C-Permit. And it would be reasonable to expect A2 level German after 5 years, if not B1. And it is reasonable that her boss does not write a false statement (Ex-pat Rule #1: Don't lie to the Gods...bend the truth maybe...but don't lie).

Unfortunately if this is a "house rule", and not applied in a uniform manner, then it is quite unfortunate indeed.
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Old 04.11.2006, 07:58
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Re: C-Permit - language test?

Is there a sample A2 level test online? I bet I will fail it and I have a C-Permit.

Edit- By A2 you mean UK A2 level [AS (Advanced Subsidiary) and A2 examinations]? If yes then I will DEFINITELY fail it.

Quote:
I don't find it unreasonable that local language skills be required for a C-Permit.
So are you saying if someone is in a field that allows them to live a comfortably life with English only OR if they have German language learning issues then they should be barred from getting C-Permit? I can understand such requirement for Swiss passport but for C-Permit? C-Permit does not even get you right to vote!


Edit- Better get out my German books. This is getting too shameful for me

Last edited by jamaicanRUM; 04.11.2006 at 08:10.
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Old 04.11.2006, 08:09
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Re: C-Permit - language test?

Migros have an online test. Find the link on THIS PAGE (The links seem to be javascript, so I can't give you a link direct to the test).

A2 is a TELC level, part of the new TELC standardised competence grading system for all languages. A2 is the level where you can understand and use short sentences in simple situations (eg ordering a drink, asking where the bank is, etc).
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Old 04.11.2006, 08:17
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Re: C-Permit - language test?

jR, you have given me an idea. I will search for online language tests, and post the the findings later on in the Language forum.
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Old 04.11.2006, 08:36
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Re: C-Permit - language test?

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jR, you have given me an idea. I will search for online language tests, and post the the findings later on in the Language forum.
You are evil Checking your other link right now. What a start you give to my weekend

Edit- Got 15 out of 36 right + a severe headache! That would be 41%...so a borderline pass? They recommend a B1 course for me. Is C2 the highest or is it the other way around...A1 is the highest?

Last edited by jamaicanRUM; 04.11.2006 at 09:21.
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Old 04.11.2006, 10:13
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Re: C-Permit - language test?

A1 basic, C2 is the most proficient. Passmarks are generally 60%.

If you are looking at getting a certificate for a permit, you can also try first going to a language school and doing one of their grading tests. Then discuss with them what course/test is realistic. Remember that most certificate/tests have four components - reading comprehension, listening comprehension, speaking test, written test.

jR, best to discuss the results on the new thread.
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Old 04.11.2006, 12:29
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Re: C-Permit - language test?

smbuzby - Why not ask your girlfriend to ask the authorities why it is that she is being singled out for this test, when nobody else she knows (apart from the other Polish guy who is getting the same treatment) has had to do the test. I mean, nobody here on this forum has said that they had to do it - and we have quite a few readers and members.

It certainly seems as if this "house rule" (as Litespeed put it) is not being applied uniformly. If it were me I would like an answer as to why, and if there is any regulation (which can be checked and verified) which states that a Polish person must be treated differently in this regard.

After all - if they turn around and pretend that everybody has to do this, then it's a blatant lie and we all know it!
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Old 04.11.2006, 12:55
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Re: C-Permit - language test?

Okay found something. It appears to be a rule that applies to "3rd class" (non-EU17) ex-pats. I found THIS INFORMATION (in German) from Kanton St. Gallen. Check out point 2.3. Briefly translated, it states that you must supply a certificate, from an approved examination centre, stating you have reached the TELC A2 proficiency.

Perhaps many Kantons have been ignoring this requirement up until now, or are enforcing/introducing it due to the (perceived) impact of the EU-Extension.

So there we go, eh....learn somethin' new every day..

Last edited by litespeed; 04.11.2006 at 13:21.
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Old 04.11.2006, 14:13
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Re: C-Permit - language test?

Very interesting info Litespeed. It all seems to be straight forward. It lays out clear discrimination between non-EU17 nations and the EU. Interestingly they refer to EU17 - yet the EU was 15 nations until 2004, and 25 after that. Perhaps they are also counting EFTA, but this would technically be 18 rather than 17 (since Switzerland is included). On the other had, it could be a typo and they meant to say EU15.

Now on this document there are no legal references of any kind, except for a reference to what integration means. There is no date apart from 2006/V1 written on the bottom.

I believe the key to all this is in the vote which occurred in Sep 2005. This is the vote which recognised the new EU states, with some "flanking measures" (translating from the term used in German). The following web page contains this text:

Quote:
Sicherheitsmassnahmen schützen vor allfälligen Risiken der Arbeitsmarktöffnung: Die Freizügigkeit mit den neuen EU-Staaten wird schrittweise und kontrolliert eingeführt. Bis 2011 gelten Kontingente, Inländervorrang sowie vorgängige Lohn- und Arbeitskontrollen. Eine spezielle Schutzklausel des Freizügigkeitsabkommens erlaubt bei starker Zuwanderung bis 2014, diese erneut zu beschränken. Zudem besteht 2009 eine weitere Referendumsmöglichkeit, wenn das Parlament auf der Grundlage der gemachten Erfahrungen entscheidet, ob das Freizügigkeitsabkommen weitergeführt werden soll.
The translation of this rather boring text is: there will be extra conditions for the new EU states.

I'm unable to find a list (in law) of exactly what these conditions are, so it's impossible to tell whether those conditions from the St. Gallen info sheet are based on law, or someone's interpretation... I suspect it is kosher, but would like to see it for myself

I did have to savour the irony of point 2.2 - "Beachtung der rechtsstaatlichen Ordnung und der demokratischen Prinzipien". In other words the respect for the rule of law and democratic principles. Why is there a requirement to respect democratic principles when they will be systematically denied to the future C-permit holder in any case?
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Old 04.11.2006, 14:24
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Re: C-Permit - language test?

I believe if Switzerland had it's way, it would enforce this on all applicants. Unfortunately it has had to roll over to the EU on many issues in order to protect a few of its own sacred cows, none the least being banking secrecy. In other words, EU-17 get a free upgrade to Business, while the rest remain in Economy. The EU-8 have only been able to negotiate the seats at the exit row (more leg room, but thats about it).

I think Switzerland sees the EU as a greater influence now than even the US, if for no other reason than the fact this tiny country is landlocked by said socio-political-economic conglomeration.
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Old 04.11.2006, 14:28
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Re: C-Permit - language test?

Very interesting and twisted I must say.
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Old 04.11.2006, 14:32
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Re: C-Permit - language test?

The plot thickens when you read THIS
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Old 05.11.2006, 21:52
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Re: C-Permit - language test?

Thanks all for clarifying this - esp. Litespeed.

Seems she's not going mad afterall

She's taking the exam this week and passed the online migros one (A2). It costs 30CHF to take it by the way....
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