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bge0 19.06.2015 13:12

Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Hello,

I know this question has been asked a lot. But we are in a slight dilemma.
I am an Italian citizen who has really never lived in Italy and have an American wife.

We jointly applied for our permits (under reunification) about 4 months ago. We decided to come to Geneva to tour around Europe for a while before I start working. Due to some delays I only JUST got my B permit. However, when talking to the cantonal office they stated that my wife's permit would take a 'few more months'. My wife came here with her US passport (as a tourist) expecting our paperwork to be done.

At this point what are our options? Would she have to leave the country? Could I get dual apartments in France and Switzerland and have her stay there?

Thanks.

Medea Fleecestealer 19.06.2015 13:23

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bge0 (Post 2407241)
Hello,

I know this question has been asked a lot. But we are in a slight dilemma.
I am an Italian citizen who has really never lived in Italy and have an American wife.

We jointly applied for our permits (under reunification) about 4 months ago. We decided to come to Geneva to tour around Europe for a while before I start working. Due to some delays I only JUST got my B permit. However, when talking to the cantonal office they stated that my wife's permit would take a 'few more months'. My wife came here with her US passport (as a tourist) expecting our paperwork to be done.

At this point what are our options? Would she have to leave the country? Could I get dual apartments in France and Switzerland and have her stay there?

Thanks.

At this point what are our options?
Hope that it gets sorted out quickly. Or go to the UK for a while until her permit is ready. The UK isn't in the Schengen area.

Would she have to leave the country?
Yes. If you're coming here from the States then she needs a Type D visa to enter Switzerland long term legally anyway and she has to apply for that in the States.

Could I get dual apartments in France and Switzerland and have her stay there?
No, because her status as a tourist applies to the whole of the Schengen area and not just Switzerland. So she's only allowed to stay in the Schengen area for 3 months max.

bge0 19.06.2015 13:40

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
So if she leaves to goto the UK (I have family she can stay with there) then she can come back when the permit is ready?

Medea Fleecestealer 19.06.2015 14:56

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Yes. Because the UK isn't part of the Schengen Area she can stay up to 3 months here as a tourist and then go to the UK for another 3 months as a tourist. She might also be able to apply for the Type D visa at the Swiss embassy there. Worth checking on and obviously not as expensive as having to fly back to the States to apply and wait for it there.

bge0 19.06.2015 15:01

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 2407307)
Yes. Because the UK isn't part of the Schengen Area she can stay up to 3 months here as a tourist and then go to the UK for another 3 months as a tourist. She might also be able to apply for the Type D visa at the Swiss embassy there. Worth checking on and obviously not as expensive as having to fly back to the States to apply and wait for it there.

Thank you very much! I will update this thread with the results of this endeavor !

jhm3 19.06.2015 15:21

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 2407307)
Yes. Because the UK isn't part of the Schengen Area she can stay up to 3 months here as a tourist and then go to the UK for another 3 months as a tourist. She might also be able to apply for the Type D visa at the Swiss embassy there. Worth checking on and obviously not as expensive as having to fly back to the States to apply and wait for it there.

Indeed, and visitors to the UK can stay there for up to six months (rather than three, as in Schengen), which hopefully is way more than enough time for the permit to come through ...

Medea Fleecestealer 19.06.2015 15:22

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Yes, please do because it's always useful to have people's actual experiences when dealing with the various cantons/communes in Switzerland. They do vary in how they deal with these things. :)

Medea Fleecestealer 19.06.2015 15:40

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jhm3 (Post 2407319)
Indeed, and visitors to the UK can stay there for up to six months (rather than three, as in Schengen), which hopefully is way more than enough time for the permit to come through ...

Guess the State Department hasn't updated their info then. :p

http://travel.state.gov/content/pass...d-kingdom.html

jhm3 19.06.2015 15:51

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 2407335)
Guess the State Department hasn't updated their info then. :p

http://travel.state.gov/content/pass...d-kingdom.html

No, it would seem not!

From the UK immigration authorities:

"A visitor is a person who is coming to the UK, usually for up to six months, for a temporary purpose, for example as a tourist, to visit friends or family or to carry out a business activity....

"A non-visa national [e.g., a US citizen] may apply for a visit visa, but is not required to unless
they are:
(a) visiting the UK to marry or to form a civil partnership, or to give notice
of this; or
(b) seeking to visit the UK for more than 6 months...."

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...v_final_v2.pdf

bge0 19.06.2015 16:07

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
@Medea Fleecestealer , regarding the stay in France: can she not become a resident (of France) through my EU citizenship? Or would I also have to live in France to accomplish this? Thus my question of the two apartments.

jhm3 19.06.2015 16:24

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bge0 (Post 2407347)
can she not become a resident (of France) through my EU citizenship?

No, I wouldn't think so (unless you would be living in France with her); her free movement/residence rights in France and the rest of the EU only exist in conjunction with your right as an EU citizen to be accompanied by your family members.

The following from the French consulates in the US on visa requirements for "American family members of European passport holders" is relevant:

"Please note that you do not need any visa to enter and live in France for longer than 3 months if :
"You hold a valid U.S. passport;
"And you are the legal spouse (acte de mariage/French marriage certificate) or child (under 18y.o.) of a citizen of the above listed [European] countries;
"And you are accompanying your spouse / parent who is also moving to France.
"However, you will have to apply for the residence permit ("carte de séjour pour membre de famille d’un ressortissant européen") within 2 months of entry into France, at the Préfecture of city of residence. Note that it is always advisable to contact the Préfecture BEFORE leaving the U.S., in order to get a complete list of documents to provide to apply for such permit."

http://www.consulfrance-atlanta.org/...hp?article2735

bge0 19.06.2015 17:40

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Thank you, this makes sense regarding that. One follow up question though:

Would not leaving cause an issue with the acquisition of the residence permit? I.e. what if she had left through France for example? They wouldn't be able to track that right?

Guest 19.06.2015 18:07

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Hi,

I was thinking that your wife may not have a paper permit, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's not registered as a resident. I'm Canadian and moved here with my British husband in 2005, so it was also the case of me needing a familial regroupment permit courtesy of having an EU spouse. Although it took a few months for me to get my physical permit, I was considered a resident of Switzerland from the day I got off the plane. For 17.- CHF I got a printed attestation from the commune confirming my residency status, and with this I could sort out all sorts of administrative things and also travel outside the country. It was legally equivalent to a permit, only it was a piece of A4 paper instead of a little booklet with my photo in it.

Perhaps it would be worth clarifying whether it is your wife's residency status that will take a few months to sort out, or if the the delay is just for the official permis. At least in Vaud, it's not unusual for permits to take months to arrive after their start date. My last renewal took almost half a year.

If you can confirm her residency status, hopefully she can stay here with you and she won't have to worry about all this France/England nonsense.

H.

Atenea 19.06.2015 18:56

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HeatherM (Post 2407407)
Hi,

I was thinking that your wife may not have a paper permit, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's not registered as a resident. I'm Canadian and moved here with my British husband in 2005, so it was also the case of me needing a familial regroupment permit courtesy of having an EU spouse. Although it took a few months for me to get my physical permit, I was considered a resident of Switzerland from the day I got off the plane. For 17.- CHF I got a printed attestation from the commune confirming my residency status, and with this I could sort out all sorts of administrative things and also travel outside the country. It was legally equivalent to a permit, only it was a piece of A4 paper instead of a little booklet with my photo in it.

Perhaps it would be worth clarifying whether it is your wife's residency status that will take a few months to sort out, or if the the delay is just for the official permis. At least in Vaud, it's not unusual for permits to take months to arrive after their start date. My last renewal took almost half a year.

If you can confirm her residency status, hopefully she can stay here with you and she won't have to worry about all this France/England nonsense.

H.

I agree. If the OP's wife applied for the permit upon arrival in Switzerland, I believe that she should be able to stay in Switzerland until the permit is issued, which may take several months. At least this is what happened with me in Vaud. I am from Argentina, married to EU national and the permit took five months to arrive but I was not required to return home during such period. I also got the attestation from the commune.

bge0 19.06.2015 19:41

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
We actually applied before coming to Switzerland. I hope that this is the case for her permit! Thank you all!

Atenea 19.06.2015 20:36

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bge0 (Post 2407441)
We actually applied before coming to Switzerland. I hope that this is the case for her permit! Thank you all!

I am not entirely sure, but if you applied before coming I believe that the situation may be different.

Bucentaure 19.06.2015 20:39

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
If OP earns enough, and if the apartment fits with the minimum requirements for foreigners in CH (dependent upon the canton),


OP's wife has every right to stay legally in CH, being married to an EU citizen. EUs are priviledged.


If Geneva authorities need more time in issuing a permit is irrelevant.

bge0 19.06.2015 21:32

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
This should be fine: I am currently earning 60k CHF and am staying in a house with a family friend.

vydriduch 20.06.2015 00:50

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bge0 (Post 2407241)
At this point what are our options? Would she have to leave the country?

Do feel free to ask the cantonal migration authority, they are in charge. Provided she has registered as a resident at your address, there is likely nothing to worry about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucentaure (Post 2407459)
If OP earns enough, and if the apartment fits with the minimum requirements for foreigners in CH (dependent upon the canton), OP's wife has every right to stay

The above is indeed sufficient, but not necessary.

It is sufficient that the OP be employed. They do not have to earn "enough".

The apartment should satisfy the minimum requirements for Swiss in CH.

More specifically:
A person who has the right of residence and is a national of a Contracting Party is entitled to be joined by the members of his family. An employed person must possess housing for his family which is regarded as of normal standard for national employed persons in the region where he is employed, but this provision may not lead to discrimination between national employed persons and employed persons from the other Contracting Party.

Agreement on the free movement of persons, Annex I, Article 3
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:02002A0430%2801%29-20120401


Island Monkey 20.06.2015 00:57

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Has your wife's permit been approved, D-visa issued and you are now just waiting a few months for the permit to be issued?

OR

Has her permit not been approved and D visa not issued yet?

If the later she may need to return home to pick up the D visa, it is issued where it was applied for (The U.S.?), then enter Switzerland properly.

bge0 20.06.2015 06:50

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Island Monkey (Post 2407580)
Has your wife's permit been approved, D-visa issued and you are now just waiting a few months for the permit to be issued?

OR

Has her permit not been approved and D visa not issued yet?

If the later she may need to return home to pick up the D visa, it is issued where it was applied for (The U.S.?), then enter Switzerland properly.

We didn't get the D visa believing that 4months would be sufficient time for the permit to arrive. I am not sure about the permit exactly. Will go in and ask. I know for a fact that mine is done though

Sean Connery 20.06.2015 08:12

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
why are you complicating this by suggesting she must move?

1. You're EU, she's married to you so she will get a permit
2. The only reason your wife should or must leave is because the authorities say so. They cannot and will not say this in theory because she is classed at EU due to being married to you

Now please go get a bank account so you can have a real problem to ask about ;)

bge0 23.06.2015 08:03

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
So went into the canton today. I found out that I will be getting an L permit (weird, because I will be here for at least 3yrs). They also stated that my partner will get the same and that we could get an attestation for her to stay. We weren't able to get the actual attestation turned in as we had a flight out, but will be doing it the upcoming Monday. But that sounds like good news to me!

Does anyone know if the spouse of an EU citizen would get an L work permit, or would it be just an L resident permit (not sure if that is a thing)?

Medea Fleecestealer 23.06.2015 08:12

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Maybe they're just issuing you with an L until you start working? You said you'd already got a B permit so it's bit odd that they changed it as you have an employment contract to start work in a few months.

As your spouse she should get exactly the same type permit as yours so it should include work rights.

bge0 23.06.2015 08:24

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 2409096)
Maybe they're just issuing you with an L until you start working? You said you'd already got a B permit so it's bit odd that they changed it as you have an employment contract to start work in a few months.

As your spouse she should get exactly the same type permit as yours so it should include work rights.

Sorry, what I meant to say "I thought I got a B permit" (it literally just got mailed out a few days ago, so I have not physically received it & just assumed it would be a B).

Thanks for the info regarding the fact that she will be able to work as well. This is great news! We were under the impression she would just get a residence permit and not be eligible to work!

Medea Fleecestealer 23.06.2015 09:50

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Well, EU spouses do get the same, but as they've issued you with an L it's worth double checking to make sure. It should have "avec activité lucrative" on the back. If it doesn't then it's a residence only to start with. May not be difficult to change if she finds a job, but as a non-EU national with an L it may be difficult to find an employer. There are certain conditions that an employer wanting to hire a non-EU spouse of a non-EU permit holder has to meet, but I don't know if they'd apply to the spouse of an EU national.

If the permit does include work rights then make sure to emphasise that on her CV so employers know she already has the right to work.

Urs Max 23.06.2015 11:47

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
EU citizens with an work contract that is unlimited or limited to at least 365 are to get a permit B, according to this overview. OP, perhaps you want to ask back why you didn't get a B permit.

bge0 28.06.2015 23:18

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Thanks everyone for the help. We were able to go in and get an attestation for 25CHF that stated she would be receiving an L permit as well. The OCP agent stated that it would be a resident permit, but she would just have to fill out a form when she finds work. They were also able to provide me with a free D visa on the spot! So great news on that front. Hopefully her finding a job won't be too hard.

Regarding the L vs. B: it has to do with the organization I work with. They generally don't request student type permits I believe and that was the issue. We will be converting the permit to a B when the next renewal (1yr) will come up.

MimusPolyglottos 27.07.2015 23:02

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bge0 (Post 2411729)
Thanks everyone for the help. We were able to go in and get an attestation for 25CHF that stated she would be receiving an L permit as well. The OCP agent stated that it would be a resident permit, but she would just have to fill out a form when she finds work. They were also able to provide me with a free D visa on the spot! So great news on that front. Hopefully her finding a job won't be too hard.

Congratulations to you both, glad everything worked out! I'm now facing a similar situation and was wondering if I could ask you about that D visa?

My husband is an EU citizen and I'm American. He's accepted a job in Switzerland and his employer will begin our joint application for B permits in the next couple of weeks. I can't quite figure out whether I absolutely need to apply for a D visa before entering Switzerland, or if I'll be ok entering as a tourist while we wait for our permits. The 90 day Schengen limit is not an issue, as I have a long term residence permit here in the EU and could return at any time if necessary. So I guess my question is: did anyone ask your wife to produce a D visa at any point during the permit application process? How exactly did you obtain it in the end? Free and on the spot sounds like a great option :) Thanks in advance for your help!

bge0 27.07.2015 23:13

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kcexpat (Post 2425112)
My husband is an EU citizen and I'm American. He's accepted a job in Switzerland and his employer will begin our joint application for B permits in the next couple of weeks. I can't quite figure out whether I absolutely need to apply for a D visa before entering Switzerland, or if I'll be ok entering as a tourist while we wait for our permits. The 90 day Schengen limit is not an issue, as I have a long term residence permit here in the EU and could return at any time if necessary. So I guess my question is: did anyone ask your wife to produce a D visa at any point during the permit application process? How exactly did you obtain it in the end? Free and on the spot sounds like a great option :) Thanks in advance for your help!

When are you planning on coming to CH? I would highly recommend getting your visa beforehand if you have some time. From my personal experience it was really not hard to get the visa (just a VERY long wait time, i.e. an entire day). No one really asked my wife to produce her permit, however if you cross the border once in a while [or travel within Europe] there are checks there. So if your shengin has expired there might be issues. Your case is a little special though since you have EU residency. So not entirely sure what would happen. Probably nothing to be honest.

TL;DR: get your visa if you can. If not apply as soon as you can. Maybe ask the company that is jointly applying for your permits to do it for you during the process.

Good luck!

MimusPolyglottos 27.07.2015 23:28

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Thanks for the info (and super quick reply!). We're planning on coming in late September. I'd definitely go ahead and apply for the D visa if it really only took one day to process, but the application says "Please note that it roughly takes 8-10 weeks before the visa is authorized or refused". Did you apply from within Switzerland? Where did you pick up the visa? According to the application I'd also have to travel to the embassy to apply in person and produce "copies of marriage and birth certificates, issued within the last 6 months", which would take some time to acquire.

bge0 28.07.2015 00:14

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
No problem! When I mean it took me a day I meant when I went to the cantonal office here. We applied there and received it there the same day. I already had my L permit at that time so it was pretty easy to do. This is in Geneva, fyi (it's different in different cantons).

The online version might take that long though (8-10 weeks). You should get the marriage and birth certificates and take your submitted application with you to a Swiss consulate where you reside currently (or maybe there is a mail in option?).

Medea Fleecestealer 28.07.2015 08:15

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
You'll need those certificates anyway for the permits so you'd better get going on getting them.

I think because you're already in the Schengen area that you won't need a visa, but check with the migration office of the canton you're planning to move to just to be sure. bge0's experience was different because they were coming from outside of Schengen and so the visa was required.

MimusPolyglottos 28.07.2015 08:47

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 2425178)
You'll need those certificates anyway for the permits so you'd better get going on getting them.

I think because you're already in the Schengen area that you won't need a visa, but check with the migration office of the canton you're planning to move to just to be sure. bge0's experience was different because they were coming from outside of Schengen and so the visa was required.

Thanks for the tip, I'll do that!

About the certificates - do you know if I'll need them to be recently issued? Of course I have copies of those documents at home, but they're all a year old at least. However, when I looked at the application for the B permit in the canton of Geneva (90% sure we'll be living there, though Vaud is still a possibility) it only asks for "Copie de l'acte de mariage pour les conjoints et de l'acte de naissance pour chaque enfant". Thanks again!

Medea Fleecestealer 28.07.2015 09:10

Re: Spouse of an EU citizen (who is non-EU) reunification
 
Check with the migration office to be sure, but they seem to like things that are only 6 months old here.


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