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  #21  
Old 10.04.2016, 15:43
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Re: L, L, L ... when B? (EU)

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A person can be on L for min 5 years and then move to C without even a singe B permit.
I'm not aware of this. According to p. 4 of this Kt. Zürich Migrationsamt presentation, it appears necessary for an L to obtain a B before obtaining a C.

Until the new law goes into place later in 2016 (or 2017), it is possible, however, to move from a B to Swiss citizenship, i.e., without a C.

http://www.ma.zh.ch/internet/sicherh...+in+der+CH.pdf
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  #22  
Old 10.04.2016, 16:18
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Re: L, L, L ... when B? (EU)

Nope, my lawyer said that you can get C without even having B. Before there was a requirement of having 5-year B permit. Now L is counted to 5-years total term.
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  #23  
Old 10.04.2016, 16:25
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Re: L, L, L ... when B? (EU)

When was this changed then?

It says: Die Niederlassungsbewilligung kann erteilt werden, wenn sich der Ausländer insgesamt mindestens zehn Jahre mit einer Kurzaufenthalts- oder Aufenthaltsbewilligung in der Schweiz aufgehalten hat

Rough translation: A C permit can be granted after at least 10 years with a L or B permit

Kurzaufenthaltsbewilligungen werden angerechnet, wenn der Aufenthalt von Beginn weg auf Dauer ausgerichtet war, das heisst ein unbefristeter Arbeitsvertrag vorlag. Nicht angerechnet werden Aufenthalte mit Kurzaufenthaltsbewilligung, wenn dieser Bewilligung ein befristeter Arbeitsvertrag zu Grunde lag.

L permits count only of the work contract was always unlimited.
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  #24  
Old 10.04.2016, 16:39
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Re: L, L, L ... when B? (EU)

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A person can be on L for min 5 years and then move to C without even a singe B permit.
Proof please.

Never ever heard of this and I really have my doubts that they are making it easier these days to get permanent residency aka C.
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  #25  
Old 10.04.2016, 17:32
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Re: L, L, L ... when B? (EU)

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A person can be on L for min 5 years and then move to C without even a singe B permit.
To obtain a C permit through the standard process at 10 years, the applicant must hold a B permit for the past five years:

"Ordentliche Erteilung der Niederlassungsbewilligung
3.1 10 Jahre Aufenthalt
Ausländern kann die Niederlassungsbewilligung erteilt werden, wenn sie sich insgesamt mindestens zehn Jahre mit einer Kurzaufenthalts- oder Aufenthaltsbewilligung in der Schweiz aufgehalten haben und sie während den letzten fünf Jahren ununterbrochen im Besitz einer Aufenthaltsbewilligung waren (Art. 34 Abs. 2 AuG). "

To obtain a C permit under the early process, a B permit must have been held for five years:

"Vorzeitige Erteilung der Niederlassungsbewilligung
4.1 Wichtige Gründe und erfolgreiche Integration
Die Niederlassungsbewilligung kann nach einem kürzeren Aufenthalt (vgl. Ziffer 3 zur Aufenthaltsdauer bei der ordentlichen Erteilung) erteilt werden, wenn dafür wichtige Gründe bestehen (Art. 34 Abs. 3 AuG). Wichtige Gründe liegen dann vor, wenn der Gesuchsteller die Niederlassungs- bewilligung früher schon während mindestens zehn Jahren besessen hat und der Auslandaufenthalt nicht länger als sechs Jahre gedauert hat.
Die Niederlassungsbewilligung kann bei erfolgreicher Integration nach einem ununterbrochenen Aufenthalt mit Aufenthaltsbewilligung während der letzten fünf Jahre erteilt werden (Art. 34 Abs. 4 AuG). "

Kurzaufenthaltsbewilligung = L
Aufenthaltsbewilligung = B
Niederlassungsbewilligung = C

http://www.sz.ch/documents/20160205_...ewilligung.pdf

Time to find a new attorney!
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  #26  
Old 11.04.2016, 01:21
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Re: L, L, L ... when B? (EU)

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How stupid do you think they are?

No permanent contract, no B permit.


Why in heaven's name you would waste 400/hour on a lawyer to tell you exactly this and confirm what's written on pretty much every migration/permit page is beyond me.
I know many people working in IT (from EU2 countries ) who, despite having a good permanent contract, have received L permit for 3 years (actually 2 and half). How do you explain that?
Are the Swiss authorities really correct and impartial? No, I do not think so. Not anymore.
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  #27  
Old 11.04.2016, 09:23
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Re: L, L, L ... when B? (EU)

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I know many people working in IT (from EU2 countries ) who, despite having a good permanent contract, have received L permit for 3 years (actually 2 and half). How do you explain that?
Are the Swiss authorities really correct and impartial? No, I do not think so. Not anymore.
Part of the reason for not renewing IT employee contracts, who come from outside of the EU25, is due to the increased level of unemployment by "domestic" IT workers. KPMG wrote this in December 2014:

"Note that regarding IT specialists the authorities of the Canton of Zurich have significantly tightened their admission practice already throughout the year 2014 due to an increased unemployment rate of domestic employees in this sector. "

http://blog.kpmg.ch/swiss-immigration-outlook-2015/
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  #28  
Old 11.04.2016, 09:47
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Re: L, L, L ... when B? (EU)

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Part of the reason for not renewing IT employee contracts, who come from outside of the EU25, is due to the increased level of unemployment by "domestic" IT workers. KPMG wrote this in December 2014:

"Note that regarding IT specialists the authorities of the Canton of Zurich have significantly tightened their admission practice already throughout the year 2014 due to an increased unemployment rate of domestic employees in this sector. "

http://blog.kpmg.ch/swiss-immigration-outlook-2015/
Sorry but this doesn't hold water. If the companies would find what they need amongst domestic unemployed IT professionals they would hire these ones, as opposed to having to ask for work permits - a process that takes time and bureaucratic procedures.
I was referring to the situation when they have signed permanent contracts and got only L permits in situations when B permits are (usually) issued, so I imagine that if someone has a limited contract it would be practically impossible to get a B permit.
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  #29  
Old 11.04.2016, 10:07
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Re: L, L, L ... when B? (EU)

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Sorry but this doesn't hold water. If the companies would find what they need amongst domestic unemployed IT professionals they would hire these ones, as opposed to having to ask for work permits - a process that takes time and bureaucratic procedures.
I was referring to the situation when they have signed permanent contracts and got only L permits in situations when B permits are (usually) issued, so I imagine that if someone has a limited contract it would be practically impossible to get a B permit.
From my read of the KPMG report, the Swiss authorities are telling employers to look closely in the Swiss market for IT employees - where there are 1,000s who are unemployed - before coming to them with a request for a work permit renewal or a new work permit request for a non-EU25 citizen.

In 2015 the B permits for non-EU were exhausted in November. The Swiss authorities helped out by issuing 249 more B permits from a 2014 "reserve". As an opinion, this was one-off and won't happen again in 2016.

These statements from the most recent "Statistik Zuwanderung" give an overview of the impact of immigration policy changes and of the not-so-robust Swiss economy. Briefly, net immigration has declined by 32.1%, gross immigration has declined by 7.4% and emigration of foreigners has increased by 20.1%:

* Der Wanderungssaldo der ständigen ausländischen Wohnbevölkerung hat im Januar – Februar 2016 im Vergleich zum Vorjahr abgenommen (-32.1%).
* Die Einwanderung (Zuzug) der ständigen ausländischen Wohnbevölkerung hat im Januar – Februar 2016 im Vergleich zum Vorjahr leicht abgenommen (-7.4%)
* Die Auswanderung (Wegzug) der ständigen ausländischen Wohnbevölkerung hat im Januar –Februar 2016 im Vergleich zum Vorjahr zugenommen (+20.1%).

https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...-2016-02-d.pdf
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  #30  
Old 11.04.2016, 10:18
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Re: L, L, L ... when B? (EU)

Surprised at the low number of C permits... This is top 5....


Ständige ausländische Wohnbevölkerung
Staatsangehörigkeit
Januar – Februar 2016
Russland
47
Rumänien
43

Indien
33
China
29
Polen
29


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  #31  
Old 11.04.2016, 10:22
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Re: L, L, L ... when B? (EU)

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I know many people working in IT (from EU2 countries ) who, despite having a good permanent contract, have received L permit for 3 years (actually 2 and half). How do you explain that?
Are the Swiss authorities really correct and impartial? No, I do not think so. Not anymore.
EU 2 = Romania and Bulgaria. They've had to follow different rules for many years and are treated as non-EU in labor market questions, the only difference to actual non-EUs being that they don't need an entry visa anymore. It's not unusual for non-EUs to first get an L and later a B, even if on a permanent contract
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  #32  
Old 11.04.2016, 10:24
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Re: L, L, L ... when B? (EU)

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Proof please.

Never ever heard of this and I really have my doubts that they are making it easier these days to get permanent residency aka C.
Totally agree with that, you can see from the stats Mullhollander has posted. From the same source, C is granted only if

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• Die Niederlassungsbewilligung C kann bei erfolgreicher Integration, namentlich wenn die betroffene Person über gute Kenntnisse einer Landessprache verfügt, bereits nach ununterbrochenem Aufenthalt mit Aufenthaltsbewilligung während der letzten fünf Jahre erteilt werden (AuG Art. 34 Abs. 4). Eine vorzeitige Erteilung der Niederlassungsbewilligung C ist somit ein Indikator einer gelungenen Integration.
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  #33  
Old 11.04.2016, 10:27
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Re: L, L, L ... when B? (EU)

@greenmount:
Those C permits are under the "early" C permit issuance program for good integration. "Early" C permits seem to run around 3-4% of total C permits issued.

Also, my congratulations to anyone who receives a C permit under this program - it shows that they have made an effort to learn a national language.
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  #34  
Old 11.04.2016, 10:28
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Re: L, L, L ... when B? (EU)

What permit you get depends on your nationality, your qualifications, your contract, the Kanton you work and your language abilities.


For example Germans in German speaking Areas like Zürich can get a B permit right away if the temporary work contract is open ended. I know lpeople who asked for it and got it right away.


The decision is always personal and we don't know most of the facts mentioned above about you. That's why we cannot fully judge if you'll have a chance changing it the way you intend. In any case trying to play some tricks is not going to work well as those officials have seen plenty of it and are not going to be fooled by clowns.
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  #35  
Old 11.04.2016, 10:29
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Re: L, L, L ... when B? (EU)

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If the companies would find what they need amongst domestic unemployed IT professionals they would hire these ones, as opposed to having to ask for work permits - a process that takes time and bureaucratic procedures.
A comment on this: speaking from the perspective of a large MNC, I can promise the above is not true In light of many big corporations' D&I intiatives, it's quite normal for them to not even look at Swiss or even EU citizens in the first place, but go for a non-EU right away, to fill certain internal quota. As a big company, they don't care about the extra work and effort and I've seen them fabricate whole lists of supposed applications to fulfil the "didn't find a CH/EU candidate" criterion...

Smaller companies operate differently, though, I think. Or hope.
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  #36  
Old 11.04.2016, 10:34
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Re: L, L, L ... when B? (EU)

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A comment on this: speaking from the perspective of a large MNC, I can promise the above is not true In light of many big corporations' D&I intiatives, it's quite normal for them to not even look at Swiss or even EU citizens in the first place, but go for a non-EU right away, to fill certain internal quota. As a big company, they don't care about the extra work and effort and I've seen them fabricate whole lists of supposed applications to fulfil the "didn't find a CH/EU candidate" criterion...

Smaller companies operate differently, though, I think. Or hope.
To fill certain internal quota? Like in a diversity programme or...?
I know quite a few people who are in management and never heard of such stories. Even if the HR might enhance the file of a certain candidate to make it easier to be approved by authorities, the main criterion is to fulfil the job requirments at the best parameters and obviously there is a much larger pool outside CH and EU.
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  #37  
Old 11.04.2016, 10:35
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Re: L, L, L ... when B? (EU)

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To fill certain internal quota? Like in a diversity programme or...?
Yes
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  #38  
Old 11.04.2016, 10:41
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Re: L, L, L ... when B? (EU)

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Yes
Hard to believe that. Some companies have to work really hard to find suitable candidates and you can see many people from Russia or India for instance, and close to none from say Latin America. Unfortunately, it doesn't really work as UN.
Some nationalities are overrepresented in the IT field and that is not due to diversity sort of programmes. Ask technical leaders. These are things that HR might not quite see, it's OK.
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  #39  
Old 11.04.2016, 10:48
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Re: L, L, L ... when B? (EU)

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Hard to believe that. Some companies have to work really hard to find suitable candidates and you can see many people from Russia for instance, and close to none from say Latin America. Unfortunately, it doesn't really work as UN.
Oh you can believe me The stories I could tell... But my company might indeed be a "special case", to put it nicely.
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  #40  
Old 11.04.2016, 12:12
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Re: L, L, L ... when B? (EU)

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I know many people working in IT (from EU2 countries ) who, despite having a good permanent contract, have received L permit for 3 years (actually 2 and half). How do you explain that?
Are the Swiss authorities really correct and impartial? No, I do not think so. Not anymore.
There is a quota system for EU2 countries and people from these countries are handled differently from other countries for permit applications, sort of between EU country conditions and non EU. Details here in English.
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