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-   -   Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused (https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-visas-government/254150-size-apartment-family-reunion-permit-refused.html)

baoger 13.05.2016 18:20

Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Hi,


Today I received the letter from Immigration office - they refused my family reunion permit for my wife and my son (2 years old) due to the size of the apartment. My current one is 2.5 room and they request that minimun 3.5 is required. My landloard agreed to invite my wife and my son to live in this apartment.


Any one can help to fight back to immigration office. They still accept agrument/feedback before the final refuse.


Thanks very much.

olygirl 13.05.2016 18:27

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Boager

I kind of get where the immigration office is coming from. 2.5 rooms is a very small area to live in unless the rooms are very large. Are you planning on moving to a 3.5 room flat?

baoger 13.05.2016 18:36

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Actually it is not too small. we are in the ground floor and we also have a garden.


Yes I am thinking to move.....

roegner 13.05.2016 18:39

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
The garden is nice but for the immigration authorities that does not count as they look at space/bedrooms. And 2,5 is probably one bedroom?

miniMia 13.05.2016 19:18

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
A one bedroom apartment is not "big" enough for a couple with a child. You need one bedroom for you and your wife and a separate bedroom for your child. You may be able to argue the baby is still little and that you will move once they are here an settled a bit.

The m2 of the apartment is a lesser issue. A letter from teh landlord wouldn't hurt.

Did the letter say you have 30 days to appeal?

baoger 13.05.2016 20:25

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miniMia (Post 2588090)
A one bedroom apartment is not "big" enough for a couple with a child. You need one bedroom for you and your wife and a separate bedroom for your child. You may be able to argue the baby is still little and that you will move once they are here an settled a bit.

The m2 of the apartment is a lesser issue. A letter from teh landlord wouldn't hurt.

Did the letter say you have 30 days to appeal?



Thanks very much for your input. I got 18 days to appeal. I plan to ask a German speaker to give a call to the immigration office.

happyrobbie 15.05.2016 22:11

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Maybe the refusal from immigration office is not grounded, as in the "Directives et commentaires Domaine des étrangers (Directives LEtr)" (the by-law issued by federal office of immigration to explain the federal law on foreigners), for family reunification, minimum number of pieces of appartement = number of person - 1. So theoretically they cannot refuse your case by this reason as soon as the appartement has more than 2 pieces (3-1).

https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...ngen-aug-f.pdf
(article 6.1.4).

Giving a call to immigration office first is a good choice. You can explain why for you the appartment is big enough. If you do not speak the language, try asking your landlord?

Island Monkey 15.05.2016 22:15

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by baoger (Post 2588066)
Actually it is not too small. we are in the ground floor and we also have a garden.


Yes I am thinking to move.....

Yes it is. You need two bedrooms.

I wouldn't "appeal"... I'd get in touch with them, say you see their point and could they please put your application on hold whilst you move to a 3.5 room. Appeal and you'll lose.

Bucentaure 15.05.2016 22:57

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Happyrobbie is perfectly right. Appeal.


The law in its formulation is crystal clear (in the contrary to its application), and if OP does a little research on the forum, he will find info on that matter (I posted some, e.g., in former threads).




P.S. Switzerland isn't a Banana republic nor a bloody dictatorship.


Citizens have rights in this country, among the latter the right to appeal.
If OP wishes, he could of course ask the Migrationsamt how come they made their opinion, in the first place. Asking questions is no crime either.

curley 15.05.2016 23:16

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
<quoting happyrobbie by hand as again it doesn't work>:Maybe the refusal from immigration office is not grounded, as in the "Directives et commentaires Domaine des étrangers (Directives LEtr)" (the by-law issued by federal office of immigration to explain the federal law on foreigners), for family reunification, minimum number of pieces of appartement = number of person - 1. So theoretically they cannot refuse your case by this reason as soon as the appartement has more than 2 pieces (3-1).

https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...ngen-aug-f.pdf
(article 6.1.4). <end of quote>

If you don't speak French: https://www.ekm.admin.ch/dam/data/ek...at_wohnung.pdf
The rules about minimum space in flats are mainly made for to protect (foreign) tenants from greedy landlords.

transeuropeancheese 23.05.2016 18:10

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
That document is slightly funny, you know? You have to have an "appropriately sized flat". Nobody, but *nobody*, has ever clearly defined what this means. Cantons just make their own rules up. The executive claims the judicial branch has it under control and knows perfectly what the term means. The legislators replace one vague term by another. It just makes you despair of governance in this country.

But one thing is clear: to appeal this decision you have to know what canton you are in and what their own current practise is. Solothurn, Schaffhausen, and BL seem to want an extra bedroom even for children under 12. Two cantons operate based on a metric involving surface area.

EDIT: Wait, the poor chap is in Schwyz. They are the guys who apparently use a complicated formula based on surface area, so for 3 people at least 60m^2. I'd check that this is satisfied, for starters, or try to argue the kid is so small and the number for 2 people (50m^2) is still met.


I'd also ring these clowns and point out that the kid is only two, because most people working at a Migrationsamt are (to put it mildly) barely able to read on the best of days, and they may have overlooked that fact.

curley 23.05.2016 19:15

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by transeuropeancheese (Post 2592833)
That document is slightly funny, you know? You have to have an "appropriately sized flat". Nobody, but *nobody*, has ever clearly defined what this means. Cantons just make their own rules up. The executive claims the judicial branch has it under control and knows perfectly what the term means. The legislators replace one vague term by another. It just makes you despair of governance in this country.

But one thing is clear: to appeal this decision you have to know what canton you are in and what their own current practise is. Solothurn, Schaffhausen, and BL seem to want an extra bedroom even for children under 12. Two cantons operate based on a metric involving surface area.

EDIT: Wait, the poor chap is in Schwyz. They are the guys who apparently use a complicated formula based on surface area, so for 3 people at least 60m^2. I'd check that this is satisfied, for starters, or try to argue the kid is so small and the number for 2 people (50m^2) is still met.


I'd also ring these clowns and point out that the kid is only two, because most people working at a Migrationsamt are (to put it mildly) barely able to read on the best of days, and they may have overlooked that fact.

Yep and you will find out that many Swiss documents are funny and not only slightly. It's what we call an ambiguous clause here and they luv them.
But to cut things short: If you have a 3 room appartement for daddy, mummy and 1-2 kids you should be alright. As you mentioned, they don't like reading so don't talk about m2 but rooms :D

baoger 23.05.2016 20:23

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Thanks all for your input and appeal is submitted last Tuesday.


Still waiting and will share with all the result

baoger 09.11.2018 14:29

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by baoger (Post 2592916)
Thanks all for your input and appeal is submitted last Tuesday.


Still waiting and will share with all the result

Here just to update to all the final result, even it was already long time ago - I did write an appeal to the immigration office, but they still insisted their decision that I need a bigger apartment to approve my family visa. As a result I also had to pay almost 500CHF for this failed appeal.

Then at the end, we found a bigger apartment with 4.5 rooms. So learning is that follow the immigration office rules, if not confident enough, then do not make an appeal, or else you have to pay a lot.

curley 09.11.2018 16:06

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by baoger (Post 3011770)
Here just to update to all the final result, even it was already long time ago - I did write an appeal to the immigration office, but they still insisted their decision that I need a bigger apartment to approve my family visa. As a result I also had to pay almost 500CHF for this failed appeal.

Then at the end, we found a bigger apartment with 4.5 rooms. So learning is that follow the immigration office rules, if not confident enough, then do not make an appeal, or else you have to pay a lot.

Thanks for reporting back!

You're right, an appeal in such a situation makes no sense and only costs money. After all they openly told you what's lacking for an "okay", gave you the chance to change it and the lack was based on the country's (in this case Switzerland) general rules (could be looked up anywhere). The chances that a country changes it's laws due to an appeal of someone who for some reason would like to live more uncomfortable are - zero, I suspect. :)

Now that the family is here, I guess you could move to a smaller flat again, provided a landlord gives you one (as the landlord has to follow the same rules).
When a friend with four kids moved from a small place to a house, the kids didn't want their own rooms and slept in the same one for months! The parents were pretty startled.
AfaIk they enjoy their own spaces now though, as they got older.

Hope your family likes it here. Good luck to you all.

aSwissInTheUS 09.11.2018 16:41

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by curley (Post 3011825)
Now that the family is here, I guess you could move to a smaller flat again, provided a landlord gives you one (as the landlord has to follow the same rules)

What rules? There are AFAIK no rules once you live in the country, there are only rules when you bring in your family.

curley 09.11.2018 16:49

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aSwissInTheUS (Post 3011843)
What rules? There are AFAIK no rules once you live in the country, there are only rules when you bring in your family.

Nope, there are some rules and landlords stick to them.
To be honest you'd be better and faster to find them. :msnblush:

In fact my landlord refused to take a family this summer because it was too big (too many members) for the flat they applied for.
And I've often come accross the problem with my clients looking for flats - and they were already in the country as well.

Apparently a "Überbelegung" (over-occupancy) of a flat is given when if there are two more people than rooms.
<<Von einer Überbelegung der Wohnung wird zudem in der Praxis erst ausgegangen, wenn die Personenzahl die Zimmerzahl plus zwei überschreitet>> site of Mobiliar.

I think it's a rule and not a law :-)

aSwissInTheUS 09.11.2018 17:13

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by curley (Post 3011846)
Nope, there are some rules and landlords stick to them.
To be honest you'd be better and faster to find them. :msnblush:

I can only find things which exists and thus can be found. ;) Unless I did not look deep enough. Can happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by curley (Post 3011846)
In fact my landlord refused to take a family this summer because it was too big (too many members) for the flat they applied for.

[...]

I think it's a rule and not a law :-)

I think so as well. An informal one. An owner is free to "observe" it and state an occupation limit in the rental contract. Once again AFAIK, a landlord can not do anything if a family grows naturally.

curley 09.11.2018 17:33

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aSwissInTheUS (Post 3011853)
I can only find things which exists and thus can be found. ;) Unless I did not look deep enough. Can happen......

And here we go: admin.ch (sorry, this is only in German, French and Italian).


aSitUS, I hope you will return to your efficient researching-mode. It was so darn comfi, I really got used to it. I wanna return to thinking "let aSitUS sort that out" when it smells like too much work. :D

aSwissInTheUS 09.11.2018 19:17

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by curley (Post 3011859)
And here we go: admin.ch (sorry, this is only in German, French and Italian).

Those are the rules which apply only to federally subsidized apartments. They must have at least the size listed to be eligible.
Here the corresponding act https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...232/index.html which is mentioned in the ordinance.

On the other hand that could also be seen as at least as informal guideline what an appropriate apartment for family reunion purposes should offer. So we see for three persons it needs two individual rooms plus a common room.

Also in the document https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...ngen-aug-f.pdf you linked a few years ago. It is written in Section 6.1.4
Quote:

e. Une partie des autorités cantonales compétentes en matière d’étrangers se fonde sur le critèredu nombre de pièces (nombre de personnes - 1 = taille minimale du logement).
You might change the "-f" at the end of the link in a "-d"to see what the highlighted part means in German ;)

StelladOriente 09.11.2018 19:55

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aSwissInTheUS (Post 3011878)
Those are the rules which apply only to federally subsidized apartments. They must have at least the size listed to be eligible.
Here the corresponding act https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...232/index.html which is mentioned in the ordinance.

On the other hand that could also be seen as at least as informal guideline what an appropriate apartment for family reunion purposes should offer. So we see for three persons it needs two individual rooms plus a common room.

Also in the document https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...ngen-aug-f.pdf you linked a few years ago. It is written in Section 6.1.4

You might change the "-f" at the end of the link in a "-d"to see what the highlighted part means in German ;)

Is it possible to know what is your profession? I am always so fascinated by your answers :msnblush:

The_Love_Doctor 10.11.2018 04:08

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StelladOriente (Post 3011881)
Is it possible to know what is your profession? I am always so fascinated by your answers :msnblush:

A “Proficient Search Engine User” according to his profile. :D

I also wondered what he does... I assumed some kind of lawyer or someone who studied Swiss law or has an interest in it.

Obviously someone who speaks German/French very well to be able to read and search for laws, regulations or guidelines in the right places.

Sunspace 17.04.2019 17:45

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Helllo,

Does anyone know the apartment size criteria for two people for family reunion in Zurich canton?.

Thanks.

curley 17.04.2019 18:02

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunspace (Post 3062434)
Helllo,

Does anyone know the apartment size criteria for two people for family reunion in Zurich canton?.

Thanks.

It's quiet difficult to find. A general rule seems to be "amount of family members -1). And it must be "normal" to Swiss standards.

So if you only bring in your partner, it can even be a one-room apartment. Make it a two room and you'll be fine (even if you're already expecting).

Guest 17.04.2019 20:26

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunspace (Post 3062434)
Helllo,

Does anyone know the apartment size criteria for two people for family reunion in Zurich canton?.

Thanks.

1 room is enough, they don't care about two adults living and sleeping in the same room.

source: Was in that situation myself in Zürich.

HickvonFrick 02.03.2021 16:53

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Has anyone got any experience with bringing in parents (in this case my wife's)?

In particular, would they still apply the N-1 formula for bedrooms?

I was thinking a 5.5 should be sufficient (4 bedrooms):

Bedroom 1) me and wife
Bedroom 2) child 1
Bedroom 3) child 2 (hypothetical at present but will probably have one by the time the request is made)
Bedroom 4) wifes mum and dad.

Surely they wouldn't need me to have 5 bedrooms? If they make me buy a 6.5 I'm going to have to be in some farming village that would make Frick look like a cosmopolitan centre with my financial resources.

Medea Fleecestealer 02.03.2021 17:16

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HickvonFrick (Post 3281355)
Has anyone got any experience with bringing in parents (in this case my wife's)?

In particular, would they still apply the N-1 formula for bedrooms?

I was thinking a 5.5 should be sufficient (4 bedrooms):

Bedroom 1) me and wife
Bedroom 2) child 1
Bedroom 3) child 2 (hypothetical at present but will probably have one by the time the request is made)
Bedroom 4) wifes mum and dad.

Surely they wouldn't need me to have 5 bedrooms? If they make me buy a 6.5 I'm going to have to be in some farming village that would make Frick look like a cosmopolitan centre with my financial resources.

Should be enough, but can you bring them here now? If you/wife are Brits or other non-EU it's very difficult, if not impossible, to bring parents here.

HickvonFrick 02.03.2021 20:01

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 3281366)
Should be enough, but can you bring them here now? If you/wife are Brits or other non-EU it's very difficult, if not impossible, to bring parents here.

Thankfully covered under the citizens rights agreements between the UK and Switzerland.

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...html#937811626

Having reviewed the agreement in detail there appear to be almost no difference between Brits resident before 1 January 2021 and EU citizens - differences are in relation to people who commit crimes and their right to stay.

I'm a bit worried about over-rigorous interpretation of the N-1 bedroom rule even when it doesn't really make any sense. I'll contact the local authories and report back on what they say.

st2lemans 02.03.2021 20:22

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Don't count non-existent #2.

Tom

JackieH 02.03.2021 20:30

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HickvonFrick (Post 3281355)
Surely they wouldn't need me to have 5 bedrooms? If they make me buy a 6.5 I'm going to have to be in some farming village that would make Frick look like a cosmopolitan centre with my financial resources.

the size of the apartment would be the least of your worries. Signing up for your in-laws medical, accident and future care costs would suffice.

qwertz 02.03.2021 20:31

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HickvonFrick (Post 3281355)
Has anyone got any experience with bringing in parents (in this case my wife's)?

In particular, would they still apply the N-1 formula for bedrooms?

I was thinking a 5.5 should be sufficient (4 bedrooms):

Bedroom 1) me and wife
Bedroom 2) child 1
Bedroom 3) child 2 (hypothetical at present but will probably have one by the time the request is made)
Bedroom 4) wifes mum and dad.

Surely they wouldn't need me to have 5 bedrooms? If they make me buy a 6.5 I'm going to have to be in some farming village that would make Frick look like a cosmopolitan centre with my financial resources.

Family reunification is limited to spouse, children under 21 and parents and grandparents of the main permit holder.

If your wife has an independent permit for herself then she may bring her parents if the conditions are fulfilled. If she is on family reunification based on your permit then I'm afraid it's not possible.

https://www.ch.ch/en/family-reunification-eu-efta/

st2lemans 02.03.2021 20:45

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Is your wife Swiss? :confused:

Tom

fatmanfilms 02.03.2021 21:06

Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HickvonFrick (Post 3281355)
Has anyone got any experience with bringing in parents (in this case my wife's)?

In particular, would they still apply the N-1 formula for bedrooms?

I was thinking a 5.5 should be sufficient (4 bedrooms):

Bedroom 1) me and wife
Bedroom 2) child 1
Bedroom 3) child 2 (hypothetical at present but will probably have one by the time the request is made)
Bedroom 4) wifes mum and dad.

Surely they wouldn't need me to have 5 bedrooms? If they make me buy a 6.5 I'm going to have to be in some farming village that would make Frick look like a cosmopolitan centre with my financial resources.

You need to get them a separate apartment, it will never work, my cousin did exactly that & his mother lives 200m away.


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