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Old 13.05.2016, 18:20
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Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused

Hi,


Today I received the letter from Immigration office - they refused my family reunion permit for my wife and my son (2 years old) due to the size of the apartment. My current one is 2.5 room and they request that minimun 3.5 is required. My landloard agreed to invite my wife and my son to live in this apartment.


Any one can help to fight back to immigration office. They still accept agrument/feedback before the final refuse.


Thanks very much.
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Old 13.05.2016, 18:27
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Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused

Boager

I kind of get where the immigration office is coming from. 2.5 rooms is a very small area to live in unless the rooms are very large. Are you planning on moving to a 3.5 room flat?
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Old 13.05.2016, 18:36
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Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused

Actually it is not too small. we are in the ground floor and we also have a garden.


Yes I am thinking to move.....
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Old 13.05.2016, 18:39
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Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused

The garden is nice but for the immigration authorities that does not count as they look at space/bedrooms. And 2,5 is probably one bedroom?
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Old 13.05.2016, 19:18
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Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused

A one bedroom apartment is not "big" enough for a couple with a child. You need one bedroom for you and your wife and a separate bedroom for your child. You may be able to argue the baby is still little and that you will move once they are here an settled a bit.

The m2 of the apartment is a lesser issue. A letter from teh landlord wouldn't hurt.

Did the letter say you have 30 days to appeal?
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Old 13.05.2016, 20:25
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Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused

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A one bedroom apartment is not "big" enough for a couple with a child. You need one bedroom for you and your wife and a separate bedroom for your child. You may be able to argue the baby is still little and that you will move once they are here an settled a bit.

The m2 of the apartment is a lesser issue. A letter from teh landlord wouldn't hurt.

Did the letter say you have 30 days to appeal?


Thanks very much for your input. I got 18 days to appeal. I plan to ask a German speaker to give a call to the immigration office.
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Old 15.05.2016, 22:11
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Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused

Maybe the refusal from immigration office is not grounded, as in the "Directives et commentaires Domaine des étrangers (Directives LEtr)" (the by-law issued by federal office of immigration to explain the federal law on foreigners), for family reunification, minimum number of pieces of appartement = number of person - 1. So theoretically they cannot refuse your case by this reason as soon as the appartement has more than 2 pieces (3-1).

https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...ngen-aug-f.pdf
(article 6.1.4).

Giving a call to immigration office first is a good choice. You can explain why for you the appartment is big enough. If you do not speak the language, try asking your landlord?
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Old 15.05.2016, 22:15
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Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused

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Actually it is not too small. we are in the ground floor and we also have a garden.


Yes I am thinking to move.....
Yes it is. You need two bedrooms.

I wouldn't "appeal"... I'd get in touch with them, say you see their point and could they please put your application on hold whilst you move to a 3.5 room. Appeal and you'll lose.
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Old 15.05.2016, 22:57
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Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused

Happyrobbie is perfectly right. Appeal.


The law in its formulation is crystal clear (in the contrary to its application), and if OP does a little research on the forum, he will find info on that matter (I posted some, e.g., in former threads).




P.S. Switzerland isn't a Banana republic nor a bloody dictatorship.


Citizens have rights in this country, among the latter the right to appeal.
If OP wishes, he could of course ask the Migrationsamt how come they made their opinion, in the first place. Asking questions is no crime either.
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Old 15.05.2016, 23:16
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Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused

<quoting happyrobbie by hand as again it doesn't work>:Maybe the refusal from immigration office is not grounded, as in the "Directives et commentaires Domaine des étrangers (Directives LEtr)" (the by-law issued by federal office of immigration to explain the federal law on foreigners), for family reunification, minimum number of pieces of appartement = number of person - 1. So theoretically they cannot refuse your case by this reason as soon as the appartement has more than 2 pieces (3-1).

https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...ngen-aug-f.pdf
(article 6.1.4). <end of quote>

If you don't speak French: https://www.ekm.admin.ch/dam/data/ek...at_wohnung.pdf
The rules about minimum space in flats are mainly made for to protect (foreign) tenants from greedy landlords.
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Old 23.05.2016, 18:10
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Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused

That document is slightly funny, you know? You have to have an "appropriately sized flat". Nobody, but *nobody*, has ever clearly defined what this means. Cantons just make their own rules up. The executive claims the judicial branch has it under control and knows perfectly what the term means. The legislators replace one vague term by another. It just makes you despair of governance in this country.

But one thing is clear: to appeal this decision you have to know what canton you are in and what their own current practise is. Solothurn, Schaffhausen, and BL seem to want an extra bedroom even for children under 12. Two cantons operate based on a metric involving surface area.

EDIT: Wait, the poor chap is in Schwyz. They are the guys who apparently use a complicated formula based on surface area, so for 3 people at least 60m^2. I'd check that this is satisfied, for starters, or try to argue the kid is so small and the number for 2 people (50m^2) is still met.


I'd also ring these clowns and point out that the kid is only two, because most people working at a Migrationsamt are (to put it mildly) barely able to read on the best of days, and they may have overlooked that fact.

Last edited by transeuropeancheese; 23.05.2016 at 18:19. Reason: saw SZ
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Old 23.05.2016, 19:15
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Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused

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That document is slightly funny, you know? You have to have an "appropriately sized flat". Nobody, but *nobody*, has ever clearly defined what this means. Cantons just make their own rules up. The executive claims the judicial branch has it under control and knows perfectly what the term means. The legislators replace one vague term by another. It just makes you despair of governance in this country.

But one thing is clear: to appeal this decision you have to know what canton you are in and what their own current practise is. Solothurn, Schaffhausen, and BL seem to want an extra bedroom even for children under 12. Two cantons operate based on a metric involving surface area.

EDIT: Wait, the poor chap is in Schwyz. They are the guys who apparently use a complicated formula based on surface area, so for 3 people at least 60m^2. I'd check that this is satisfied, for starters, or try to argue the kid is so small and the number for 2 people (50m^2) is still met.


I'd also ring these clowns and point out that the kid is only two, because most people working at a Migrationsamt are (to put it mildly) barely able to read on the best of days, and they may have overlooked that fact.
Yep and you will find out that many Swiss documents are funny and not only slightly. It's what we call an ambiguous clause here and they luv them.
But to cut things short: If you have a 3 room appartement for daddy, mummy and 1-2 kids you should be alright. As you mentioned, they don't like reading so don't talk about m2 but rooms
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Old 23.05.2016, 20:23
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Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused

Thanks all for your input and appeal is submitted last Tuesday.


Still waiting and will share with all the result
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Old 09.11.2018, 14:29
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Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused

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Thanks all for your input and appeal is submitted last Tuesday.


Still waiting and will share with all the result
Here just to update to all the final result, even it was already long time ago - I did write an appeal to the immigration office, but they still insisted their decision that I need a bigger apartment to approve my family visa. As a result I also had to pay almost 500CHF for this failed appeal.

Then at the end, we found a bigger apartment with 4.5 rooms. So learning is that follow the immigration office rules, if not confident enough, then do not make an appeal, or else you have to pay a lot.
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Old 09.11.2018, 16:06
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Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused

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Here just to update to all the final result, even it was already long time ago - I did write an appeal to the immigration office, but they still insisted their decision that I need a bigger apartment to approve my family visa. As a result I also had to pay almost 500CHF for this failed appeal.

Then at the end, we found a bigger apartment with 4.5 rooms. So learning is that follow the immigration office rules, if not confident enough, then do not make an appeal, or else you have to pay a lot.
Thanks for reporting back!

You're right, an appeal in such a situation makes no sense and only costs money. After all they openly told you what's lacking for an "okay", gave you the chance to change it and the lack was based on the country's (in this case Switzerland) general rules (could be looked up anywhere). The chances that a country changes it's laws due to an appeal of someone who for some reason would like to live more uncomfortable are - zero, I suspect.

Now that the family is here, I guess you could move to a smaller flat again, provided a landlord gives you one (as the landlord has to follow the same rules).
When a friend with four kids moved from a small place to a house, the kids didn't want their own rooms and slept in the same one for months! The parents were pretty startled.
AfaIk they enjoy their own spaces now though, as they got older.

Hope your family likes it here. Good luck to you all.
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Old 09.11.2018, 16:41
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Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused

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Now that the family is here, I guess you could move to a smaller flat again, provided a landlord gives you one (as the landlord has to follow the same rules)
What rules? There are AFAIK no rules once you live in the country, there are only rules when you bring in your family.
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Old 09.11.2018, 16:49
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Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused

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What rules? There are AFAIK no rules once you live in the country, there are only rules when you bring in your family.
Nope, there are some rules and landlords stick to them.
To be honest you'd be better and faster to find them.

In fact my landlord refused to take a family this summer because it was too big (too many members) for the flat they applied for.
And I've often come accross the problem with my clients looking for flats - and they were already in the country as well.

Apparently a "Überbelegung" (over-occupancy) of a flat is given when if there are two more people than rooms.
<<Von einer Überbelegung der Wohnung wird zudem in der Praxis erst ausgegangen, wenn die Personenzahl die Zimmerzahl plus zwei überschreitet>> site of Mobiliar.

I think it's a rule and not a law :-)
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Old 09.11.2018, 17:13
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Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused

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Nope, there are some rules and landlords stick to them.
To be honest you'd be better and faster to find them.
I can only find things which exists and thus can be found. Unless I did not look deep enough. Can happen.

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In fact my landlord refused to take a family this summer because it was too big (too many members) for the flat they applied for.

[...]

I think it's a rule and not a law :-)
I think so as well. An informal one. An owner is free to "observe" it and state an occupation limit in the rental contract. Once again AFAIK, a landlord can not do anything if a family grows naturally.
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Old 09.11.2018, 17:33
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Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused

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I can only find things which exists and thus can be found. Unless I did not look deep enough. Can happen......
And here we go: admin.ch (sorry, this is only in German, French and Italian).


aSitUS, I hope you will return to your efficient researching-mode. It was so darn comfi, I really got used to it. I wanna return to thinking "let aSitUS sort that out" when it smells like too much work.
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Old 09.11.2018, 19:17
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Re: Size of the apartment - family reunion permit refused

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And here we go: admin.ch (sorry, this is only in German, French and Italian).
Those are the rules which apply only to federally subsidized apartments. They must have at least the size listed to be eligible.
Here the corresponding act https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...232/index.html which is mentioned in the ordinance.

On the other hand that could also be seen as at least as informal guideline what an appropriate apartment for family reunion purposes should offer. So we see for three persons it needs two individual rooms plus a common room.

Also in the document https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...ngen-aug-f.pdf you linked a few years ago. It is written in Section 6.1.4
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e. Une partie des autorités cantonales compétentes en matière d’étrangers se fonde sur le critèredu nombre de pièces (nombre de personnes - 1 = taille minimale du logement).
You might change the "-f" at the end of the link in a "-d"to see what the highlighted part means in German
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