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-   -   Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva? (https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-visas-government/263192-recommendations-immigration-lawyer-geneva.html)

UserNamesAllTaken 29.11.2016 13:53

Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva?
 
Hello all,

I am having a bit of a dispute with the Geneva OCP. I feel that an immigration lawyer could easily get my arguments accepted by the OCP, but if I try arguing with them I think they will simply just keep telling me "no".

Do you know any good English-speaking immigration lawyers in Geneva? I'm looking for a lawyer familiar with the non-EU cases and has experience with cases for people with advanced degrees.

Thanks for any recommendations,
-Erik

Medea Fleecestealer 29.11.2016 14:16

Re: Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva?
 
Why do you think an immigration lawyer could put the same arguments better than you? And why would OCP accept them from him instead of you?

UserNamesAllTaken 29.11.2016 16:10

Re: Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva?
 
Sometimes its simply the structure of the language (I'd prefer to communicate in English, but that wouldn't help my case I suspect).

Sometimes its just the air of authority/intimidation. When its just some nobody that will get kicked out, its easy to plug one's ears and just say "no no no no"

Lawyers can often accentuate points by referencing previous court decisions/specific laws, etc.

An experienced lawyer may have many connections. They may know the boss of the particular examiner I'm dealing with. Many lines of experience suggest that if you find someone with the right connections, they can make issues go away - but you need to pay them to make them go away... and often that is exactly what a lawyer does.

Right now, the only argument with the OCP is about the meaning of 2 words in a set of directives for implementing a federal law.
The equivalents of those two words (with the meaning the examiner at the OCP ascribes to them) aren't even present in the German and Italian versions of the directives - as it concerns a federal law, those should be equivalent and have equal weight. It should be obvious that the meaning is not as the OCP is claiming.

Yet such arguments from me seem to be useless. The OCP's response is basically, "no you are wrong".

This seems to me like the perfect case for a lawyer to intervene, because they clearly aren't listening to me.

Medea Fleecestealer 29.11.2016 18:14

Re: Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva?
 
Well, I can only find one thread which gives a link to a lawyer in Geneva and it's fairly old. Still the link works so maybe give them a call.

http://www.englishforum.ch/permits-v...nd-geneva.html

hannahbanana 08.02.2019 11:07

Re: Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by UserNamesAllTaken (Post 2699969)
Hello all,

I am having a bit of a dispute with the Geneva OCP. I feel that an immigration lawyer could easily get my arguments accepted by the OCP, but if I try arguing with them I think they will simply just keep telling me "no".

Do you know any good English-speaking immigration lawyers in Geneva? I'm looking for a lawyer familiar with the non-EU cases and has experience with cases for people with advanced degrees.

Thanks for any recommendations,
-Erik

Hi there!

I know you posted this awhile ago, but I was wondering if you had any luck with the OCPM with an immigration lawyer? I am trying to sort out my B Permit and trying to get as much information as I can from non-EUs with similar experiences. Thanks!

hopebright 29.07.2019 09:46

Re: Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva?
 
Hi, I am have the same situation and I will like to know if you were lucky to find a lawyer? I need a free lawyer to help me with the OCP


Quote:

Originally Posted by UserNamesAllTaken (Post 2700037)
Sometimes its simply the structure of the language (I'd prefer to communicate in English, but that wouldn't help my case I suspect).

Sometimes its just the air of authority/intimidation. When its just some nobody that will get kicked out, its easy to plug one's ears and just say "no no no no"

Lawyers can often accentuate points by referencing previous court decisions/specific laws, etc.

An experienced lawyer may have many connections. They may know the boss of the particular examiner I'm dealing with. Many lines of experience suggest that if you find someone with the right connections, they can make issues go away - but you need to pay them to make them go away... and often that is exactly what a lawyer does.

Right now, the only argument with the OCP is about the meaning of 2 words in a set of directives for implementing a federal law.
The equivalents of those two words (with the meaning the examiner at the OCP ascribes to them) aren't even present in the German and Italian versions of the directives - as it concerns a federal law, those should be equivalent and have equal weight. It should be obvious that the meaning is not as the OCP is claiming.

Yet such arguments from me seem to be useless. The OCP's response is basically, "no you are wrong".

This seems to me like the perfect case for a lawyer to intervene, because they clearly aren't listening to me.


roegner 29.07.2019 10:01

Re: Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hopebright (Post 3086556)
Hi, I am have the same situation and I will like to know if you were lucky to find a lawyer? I need a free lawyer to help me with the OCP

You may get some free initial advice, after that it will definitely not be for free.

hopebright 29.07.2019 23:16

Re: Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by roegner (Post 3086559)
You may get some free initial advice, after that it will definitely not be for free.

Thanks for replying. I will not mind to pay on after that as long as it isn't expensive. I am so depressed. Please kindly share a contact of a good lawyer if you have information about it.

bowlie 30.07.2019 09:00

Re: Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva?
 
This is what a search turns up: https://www.hg.org/law-firms/immigra...nd/geneva.html

meloncollie 30.07.2019 09:11

Re: Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hopebright (Post 3086739)
Thanks for replying. I will not mind to pay on after that as long as it isn't expensive.

A word of advice: Before you start talking with a law firm about your case ask upfront for an outline of fees and charges.

The old joke:

Client: What would it cost to answer two questions?

Lawyer: Five hundred francs. And your second question is...?


---

There are a couple of organisations that offer free or low cost advice to specific vulnerable populations. If your situation fits that mandate, perhaps that might be an option. But for the standard legal issues non-vulnerable folks face around permits there might not be much in the way of low cost help.

Hope you find the advice and help you need...

Guest 30.07.2019 09:33

Re: Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hopebright (Post 3086739)
Thanks for replying. I will not mind to pay on after that as long as it isn't expensive. I am so depressed. Please kindly share a contact of a good lawyer if you have information about it.




To be brutal, from the details given in your biography, you have no special skills, you are not EU so it will be very difficult, if not impossible for you to get a visa to stay here.


Face up to it, accept and look elsewhere, paying a lawyer will almost certainly result in nothing else but a large bill to pay, which you'll probably need to pay up-front with no guarantee of success or what it will cost eventually.

3Wishes 30.07.2019 09:57

Re: Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hopebright (Post 3086739)
Thanks for replying. I will not mind to pay on after that as long as it isn't expensive. I am so depressed. Please kindly share a contact of a good lawyer if you have information about it.

Before you go down the expensive road of hiring an attorney, you could share a bit of your situation here. Then we can share experiences on whether this is a futile attempt or if you might be in with a chance. It looks like you came here as an intern and want to stay?

I'm afraid people often have the idea that hiring an attorney = getting exactly what they want. They also somehow think that inexpensive attorneys exist. It rarely works out that way. The attorney gets paid, you get some advice which may or may not be what you want to hear, and you pay the bill whether you like the advice or not. ;)

Whatever you do, please be careful not to overstay your visa without permission, as that could seriously damage your chances of staying in Switzerland or even visiting again.

Guest 30.07.2019 10:50

Re: Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 3Wishes (Post 3086800)

Whatever you do, please be careful not to overstay your visa without permission, as that could seriously damage your chances of staying in Switzerland or even visiting again.




....and anywhere else, especially Schengen countries ;)

aSwissInTheUS 30.07.2019 11:30

Re: Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hopebright (Post 3086739)
Thanks for replying. I will not mind to pay on after that as long as it isn't expensive. I am so depressed. Please kindly share a contact of a good lawyer if you have information about it.

Are you aware about the actual law https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...232/index.html , ordinances https://www.admin.ch/opc/fr/classifi...lation/14.html, and the SEM directives https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/fr/home...erbereich.html ?
Can you read Fench or one of the other official languages?

It is a waste of money if you are looking for a lawyer which explains you nothing more than the law. There are other and better source of information and help for that.

See for example OP:
Quote:

Originally Posted by UserNamesAllTaken (Post 2700037)
Right now, the only argument with the OCP is about the meaning of 2 words in a set of directives for implementing a federal law.
The equivalents of those two words (with the meaning the examiner at the OCP ascribes to them) aren't even present in the German and Italian versions of the directives - as it concerns a federal law, those should be equivalent and have equal weight. It should be obvious that the meaning is not as the OCP is claiming.

They nailed it down to two simple words. In a directive which is open to challenge. Are you there yet?

hopebright 30.07.2019 23:35

Re: Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bowlie (Post 3086776)

Thanks for your help

hopebright 30.07.2019 23:42

Re: Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 3Wishes (Post 3086800)
Before you go down the expensive road of hiring an attorney, you could share a bit of your situation here. Then we can share experiences on whether this is a futile attempt or if you might be in with a chance. It looks like you came here as an intern and want to stay?

I'm afraid people often have the idea that hiring an attorney = getting exactly what they want. They also somehow think that inexpensive attorneys exist. It rarely works out that way. The attorney gets paid, you get some advice which may or may not be what you want to hear, and you pay the bill whether you like the advice or not. ;)

Whatever you do, please be careful not to overstay your visa without permission, as that could seriously damage your chances of staying in Switzerland or even visiting again.

Thank you for sharing, yes I came here as an intern and I started learning French and I postponed my masters till 2020 just to take French. The OCPM says I can’t get a permit because I am over 30 years of age, this is the only point of refusing my permit. I just want to make them see that my age doesn’t mean I can’t study French. I am not EU either. All advices on here are taken, I just have no idea on what to do because I am only depressed from it since I postponed my masters till 2020, and my grandmother has given so much for me to study French till she some money can be raised for me go and do my masters since I postponed to pay for French courses here

3Wishes 31.07.2019 09:20

Re: Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hopebright (Post 3087022)
Thank you for sharing, yes I came here as an intern and I started learning French and I postponed my masters till 2020 just to take French. The OCPM says I can’t get a permit because I am over 30 years of age, this is the only point of refusing my permit. I just want to make them see that my age doesn’t mean I can’t study French. I am not EU either. All advices on here are taken, I just have no idea on what to do because I am only depressed from it since I postponed my masters till 2020, and my grandmother has given so much for me to study French till she some money can be raised for me go and do my masters since I postponed to pay for French courses here

I think I've seen the age limit thing before, and fairly recently. Part of the issue might also be that you want to study French as opposed to work on your master's degree. Try to look at it from the Swiss authorities' point of view, why do you need to study French here in Switzerland? Why not in France (for example) or even at a school back home?

hopebright 31.07.2019 09:24

Re: Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 3Wishes (Post 3087066)
I think I've seen the age limit thing before, and fairly recently. Part of the issue might also be that you want to study French as opposed to work on your master's degree. Try to look at it from the Swiss authorities' point of view, why do you need to study French here in Switzerland? Why not in France (for example) or even at a school back home?

.

Thank you for your reply, this seem helpful. I will try the French schools in France. It is possible to study French in my home country, but there will be no means of practicing the language, since 100% of the citizens speak English, it will yield to only waste of time and money. I will continue my research on finding a school in France. I am glad I am a member of this forum, it is a helpful forum

aSwissInTheUS 31.07.2019 11:50

Re: Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hopebright (Post 3087022)
The OCPM says I can’t get a permit because I am over 30 years of age, this is the only point of refusing my permit. I just want to make them see that my age doesn’t mean I can’t study French.[...] my grandmother has given so much for me to study French till she some money can be raised for me go and do my masters since I postponed to pay for French courses here


The answer can be found in the SEM directive:
Quote:

5.1.1.5 Durée de la formation ou de la formation continue

Est autorisé, en règle générale, une formation ou une formation continue d’une durée maximale de huit ans. Des exceptions ne sont possibles que dans les cas suffisamment motivés et doivent être soumises au SEM pour approbation (art. 23, al. 3, OASA; cf. art. 4, let. b, ch. 1 de l’ordonnance du DFJP relative aux autorisations soumises à la procédure d'approbation et aux décisions préalables dans le domaine du droit des étrangers). C’est par exemple le cas lorsqu’une formation présente une structure logique (par ex. internat, gymnase, études menant à un diplôme, doctorat), qu’elle vise un but précis et n’est pas destinée à éluder des conditions d’admission plus strictes. Sous réserve de circonstances particulières, les personnes de plus de 30 ans ne peuvent en principe se voir attribuer une autorisation de séjour pour se former. Les exceptions doivent être suffisamment motivées (cf. décision du TAF C482/2006 du 27 février 2008).

As a general rule, training or further training of a maximum duration of eight years is authorised. Exceptions are only possible in sufficiently justified cases and must be submitted to the SEM for approval (Art. 23 (3) OASA; cf. Art. 4 (b) (1) of the FDJP Ordinance on Authorisations Subject to the Approval Procedure and Advance Decisions in the Field of Aliens Law). This is the case, for example, when a course has a logical structure (e. g. boarding school, gymnasium, studies leading to a diploma, doctorate), is intended for a specific purpose and is not intended to avoid stricter admission requirements. Subject to special circumstances, persons over 30 years of age may not in principle be granted a residence permit for training purposes. Exceptions must be sufficiently justified (see Federal Court decision C482/2006 of 27 February 2008).

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
As you see, although the 30 years age limit is not set in law, it is not just a SEM guideline, but based on a federal court ruling.

In addition there is a list of naughty countries: https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...dierende-f.pdf
Nationals from those countries have misused their visa, overstayed, or did not return to their home country at the end of the training. Now all from those countries are subject to special scrutiny.

Furthermore, the authorities have a very simple but ever so compelling reason to deny a visa: Why studying in the very expensive Switzerland, when you can get the same or better education in a country were living and overall cost is so much lower?

hopebright 31.07.2019 12:28

Re: Recommendations for an immigration lawyer in geneva?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aSwissInTheUS (Post 3087135)
The answer can be found in the SEM directive:

As you see, although the 30 years age limit is not set in law, it is not just a SEM guideline, but based on a federal court ruling.

In addition there is a list of naughty countries: https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...dierende-f.pdf
Nationals from those countries have misused their visa, overstayed, or did not return to their home country at the end of the training. Now all from those countries are subject to special scrutiny.

Furthermore, the authorities have a very simple but ever so compelling reason to deny a visa: Why studying in the very expensive Switzerland, when you can get the same or better education in a country were living and overall cost is so much lower?

Thanks for sharing, my country of Nationality isn't among the listed countries


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